Shared costs: what is considered reasonable?

Now we have car analogies.

How about ride sharing apps.

20 years ago even 10 years ago, I called it hitch hiking. Or car pool then ride share.
Living on an island with no busses, giving someone a ride, or picking up hitch hikers is still part of local culture, despite fear of murderers. No money perfectly legal.
I used to get a ride to work with a co worker who picked up several of us on route. Sometimes I drove.
No money perfectly legal. Chip in for gas, still legal, We used to call it a car pool or ride sharping

Now the world has changed ride sharing means Uber.

Now we are just getting ing ride sharing apps approved. It’s been a political hot potato. Taxi companies opposed to it. Government eventually decided. Uber drivers must have Class 4 licence. (Same as hire car or taxi).
Uber kicked up a fuss. Apparently most places Uber operate. It’s just somebody with a regular car and lisence.
It sure doesn’t appear to be cost sharing. Uber looks like it’s a business giving people rides for cash and profit.
Not sure what they do about insurance.
I’m sure Uber drivers have the odd crash.

Would boat Uber be legal? Here no. Government says Uber drivers require a commercial license.
 
Yellow Ballad said:
If I were to message you through facebook and say my wife, I and another couple (all sailors capable of taking watch, crewing etc ) wanted to spend 60 days in say the Swedish Archipelago this August and were willing to pay € 25-€50 pp pd would you accept?
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It's quite legal to advertise car share so I don't see any problems in principle doing the same with the boat but, care has to be taken about how it's advertised and costs shared can only relate directly to the trips. My main worry would be about my liability to the crew and I'm not sure how insurers would view it. I think the way you're planning it, it's a not very well disguised commercial situation.
 
frans said:
The reactions, which soon spreaded out to legal questions where the words 'stand in court' repeatedly could be found, baffled me. I always experienced the Brit as witty and relaxed, but this....
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The problem is the law is relatively ambiguous. I don't think anyone is saying it is wrong to charge people to sail in a commercial setting. The ambiguity is where the boundary lies. And the only way to really test some of this is to get 'caught' breaking rules and take it to court for interpretation by the court.

Brits are witty and relaxed. There will be people who will hand over their cash for the adventure. But if something goes wrong the regulators suddenly crawl all over what you are doing and say that what you did is not legal.

It was widely accepted the MCA didn't pay too much attention. Then Rafiki happened. To roughly paraphrase what went on there. They had a commercial vessel that people paid for places to sail on. It wasn't coded for Transatlantic sailing. The boat needed to cross the Atlantic at the end of the season. The owner decided (as many others have done) to class the journey as non-commercial. He didn't charge anyone to sail it. Instead he paid a skipper to deliver it (just like any non-commercial sailor can). He had some crew on there. Not sure if they were paid or mile builders. It went wrong mid Atlantic, in the worst possible way with the tragic loss of all on-board.

So the fact that others may also "charge" for guests doesn't mean it's legal because it was a well known fact that commercial companies did the same as Rafiki did.

The owner of Rafiki wasn't charged with the sailing being commercial. Instead they found other things to charge him with.

Remember, it won't just be you, your "passengers" and the regulator you need to convince it isn't commercial. It could be a grieving relative who knows their mum and dad paid you money to take them on a trip and thinks it's commercial.
 
Uricanejack said:
How about ride sharing apps.

No money perfectly legal. Chip in for gas, still legal, We used to call it a car pool or ride sharping

Now the world has changed ride sharing means Uber.
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There are ride sharing apps where people travelling from A to B can look for others doing the same and offer to share. In the UK they have had a government nod to say they are not illegal. BUT they are not for reward (other than the feeling of good by reducing carbon emissions).

This feels reasonably similar to a crewing website.

But - I think Tallulah's dad charging for servicing etc is a grey area. I'd guess it was never tested in law, so that doesn't make it legal. The arguement seems quite sensible, bit where do you draw a line. I could be earning £20/hr if I wasn't driving you around so I will charge for the time? And I'd expect the crown to argue that there are gains in terms of the owner having access at other timea to the vehicle at a lower cost of ownership. Would be better to share the vehicle ownership and service costs like a yacht share...

Uber kicked up a fuss. Apparently most places Uber operate. It’s just somebody with a regular car and lisence.
It sure doesn’t appear to be cost sharing. Uber looks like it’s a business giving people rides for cash and profit.
Not sure what they do about insurance.
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I believe Uber provide the insurance.
Would boat Uber be legal? Here no. Government says Uber drivers require a commercial license.
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Nope, because you are charging for the skipper's time. That is definitely unambiguously not allowed (I say unambiguously with care - because if you pay them to move *your* boat that isn't commercial!).

The Uber model does pose an interesting question. Uber driver picks their passengers and passengers pick their driver. It's a kind of bidding process.

So Skipper A posts a journey with space for 2 crew with daily costs on a share basis of £20-30 a day. He gets two offers from two couples as crew one says he will pay £20 and the other says they will pay £30. If Skipper A takes the second couple he better have a decent justification!

Now Skipper B posts the same journey for £15 a day. Couple 1 who had offered £20, now jump on Skipper B's boat because he is offering a cheaper ride. The couple are behaving like this is a commercial transaction even if skipper B was genuinely looking for company... I doubt that's Skipper B's fault UNLESS he purposefully under prices to attract them from others. --> you don't pick which mate gives you a lift home from the party based on who has the lowest fuel consumption and will cost you less...
 
frans said:
The line of events:
I posted a call on 'crewing opportunities' for a trip to the Azores which got a lot of comments suggesting it was commercial, and in the end was removed. Probably based on the fact that I included an amount for the depreciation of the safety gear for the crew, besides the more or less standard shared daily costs.
To gain more insight in what the Britisch ( my aim at YM) found acceptable, I posted this question.
The reactions, which soon spreaded out to legal issues where the words 'stand in court' repeatedly could be found, baffled me. I always experienced the Brit as witty and relaxed, but this....
In two responses I tried to wrap it up in a kind of conclusion - the final declaration of this chaotic conference - and added some background of my intentions on the long run: being an expedition ship for adventurous groups. It is this venture that you, and others, can't but see as commercial. What can I say? Read Tilman?
The discussion did turned my focus to the possible negative effects of not having created a clear legal frame for 'sailing with invited strangers'. That's something I need to dig into.

PS Why does someone chooses the nickname LadyinBed???? ?
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You asked for opinions about legality. Most of us are not lawyers.

The more I read of your posts. your plan appears very close to crossing the line to commercial voyage. If a crew forum decided it was commercial. You probably have your answer.
The bottom line, you are probably trying to include to many costs. If you were to reduce cost sharing to actual food and fuel used along with additional optional shared costs to spend a night in a marina if crew consensus desired.
You would probably cross back into the non commercial side.

In addition to Dutch or British Law. Don’t forget you also have to comply with the legal requirements of the jurisdiction into which you venture. Which may well have restrictions on foreign vessels conducting what they define as a commercial voyage within their waters. Some may not care. Some will get pretty upset about it.

Why UK rules? Probably a lot easier to get RYA certificates than others.

I guess you have three choices.

Carry on with your plan as is and accept there is a risk to you if someone traveling on your boat gets injured or worse.

Amend your plan to eliminate risk of being seen as a commercial venture. Check with your insurance company. Ask them directly this is what I plan to do. Is this covered by my current pleasure boat policy. I suspect the answer might be rather vague quote of the regulations. You might get a better idea of what they will find it acceptable for you to revive contributions for.

Or get the certificates required for both the boat and yourself to conduct a commercial voyage.

You might find getting the certificates not to hard if your boat is an expedition vessel capable of code 0. You will need an Ocean YM commercial endorsement or the required Dutch certificates.

From my own contemplation of conducting a commercial voyage. Insurance is not cheep. Which might be the nail in the coffin.

My personal opinion. I won’t accept money. From people sailing on my own boat. My reasoning is partially because I have a commercial certificate. Along with having previously worked as a sailing instructor and charter skipper.
I am quite happy to take someone out sailing and give them an informal lesson without payment. Or help them move thier boat. Without payment.
If I’m lucky, they might by me dinner.

Admittedly it was quite a few years ago. I used to get paid 125 dollars a day. As a skipper or sailing instructor. At 25 pounds per person per day as a contribution. It doesn’t take a lot of persons. Before it starts to look like your are making an income.
 
Yes. On the surface £25 doesn't sound much. But if that's a couple for 7 nights. That's £350.

If that's two couples that's £700.

I fully accept two couples won't charter a skippered yacht for a week for £700. But they could rent a holiday home for that and probably pay for food.
 
Cost sharing means that they pay for THEIR costs . ie if you have a whip & pay for food on a 50/50 basis each party is effectively paying for their part of the cost & using the 50/50 split as a fair agreed calculation. If one fixes that charge by saying that THEIR cost is going to be £X it might be their part of the cost. But if it were to be demonstrated that they only incurred 2/3 of £X then one has to ask what the other 1/3 of £X is for. If it is skippers reimbursement ( fuel, boat maintenance, etc) then does that become commercial?
If the skipper was sailing from A-B any way, then he would have had to expend the sum regardless. Therefore, the 1/3£X could be considered a commercial reimbursement.

I have sometimes invited a crew along for a short trip & would never ask for any contribution. Although the people I ask usually make sure they pay for the drinks, or a meal, ashore. However, if I am going on a longer trip & invite someone along for a ride, I say " I am going anyway so I will pay all marina & fuel costs, but It would be nice if you contributed to a whip to go 50/50 on the grub & drinks". Some even suggest a whip first & want to help pay for fuel or some marina bills. I often end up getting my round paid for me in the bar.
 
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ShinyShoe said:
Yes. On the surface £25 doesn't sound much. But if that's a couple for 7 nights. That's £350.

If that's two couples that's £700.

I fully accept two couples won't charter a skippered yacht for a week for £700. But they could rent a holiday home for that and probably pay for food.
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Different ends of the spectrum. I tend to stay in hostels, YMCA or camping, Back Packing, Canoeing or Kayaking into spectacular wilderness. I typically spend less. Or you can stay in a high class lodge, with Local Guides which has a special late season weekend deal for only just over 5 k per person. Different clients.

In many ways the kind of trip the OP is offering. Might appeal to people who’s idea of a vacation is more in my league. I like the wildernesses, I am my own guide, I pack my own gear, paddle my own canoe, and get there myself at minimum cost.

PS anyone interested in Gwai Hanis, you will need your own kayak. I just have to figure out how to get mine on my bike.
 
frans said:
As a Dutch skipper of a 44ft Koopmans - living aboard, sailing 8 mnths/yr - I am often looking for 'opstappers' as we call it, crew that jumps on and off during a planned journey. This summer I planned a passage to the Azores, with a starting leg along the English south and a long finish to Vigo, Bordeaux, Brest etc.
I'm used to, or shall I say, we, the Dutch, are used to share the daily costs of such a trip. I wonder if this is a common habit in England too, and which daily costs seem reasonable to include.
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I have followed this thread with great interest as a 'retired' Principal of a sailing school which offered berths on board a sailing yacht on longer passages, my reply to your opening question is that you should charge nothing. The moment you charge fees, you are in business. Look at it from the paying crew member's point of view. In return for a fee (even if minimal) there is an expectation that the yacht skipper is formally qualified for the task and the vessel has a licence to carry paying passengers/crew. That is quite different to recreational sailing with friends/family who might or might not share costs of consumables. We are fortunate that recreational sailing is lightly regulated; but it might not remain so if your model of setting up 'recreational' or 'private' sea voyages and then offering berths aboard for payment were to be seen as
frans said:
As a Dutch skipper of a 44ft Koopmans - living aboard, sailing 8 mnths/yr - I am often looking for 'opstappers' as we call it, crew that jumps on and off during a planned journey. This summer I planned a passage to the Azores, with a starting leg along the English south and a long finish to Vigo, Bordeaux, Brest etc.
I'm used to, or shall I say, we, the Dutch, are used to share the daily costs of such a trip. I wonder if this is a common habit in England too, and which daily costs seem reasonable to include.
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frans said:
As a Dutch skipper of a 44ft Koopmans - living aboard, sailing 8 mnths/yr - I am often looking for 'opstappers' as we call it, crew that jumps on and off during a planned journey. This summer I planned a passage to the Azores, with a starting leg along the English south and a long finish to Vigo, Bordeaux, Brest etc.
I'm used to, or shall I say, we, the Dutch, are used to share the daily costs of such a trip. I wonder if this is a common habit in England too, and which daily costs seem reasonable to include.
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Hello Frans, you say you are often looking for crew to join you on sea passages and that you expect them to pay for their berth/time on board. Nothing wrong with that; but be in no doubt that is a commercial transaction and that you and your yacht should be commercially licenced and insured. All for the benefit and protection of you and your paying crew of course. Recreational sailing with friends on the other hand, whilst recognisable when you see it is less easily defined and happily is not so closely regulated. We mess around with difference between the two at our peril. My answer (although you might not like to hear it) to your question is that you should charge nothing as it is you who doing the inviting to help you make your planned passage and in effect they are your unpaid crew. Best wishes. Charles B Telfer
 
Not much to add to what already said. Only that I aborted a Transatlantic last December mainly because the crew (found through a site, and sharing food expenses with me via a common kitty) reacted strongly to a domestic accident aboard. In short, 250 miles into the journey and still in view of land, to gush a sink I foolishly mixed two incompatible substances. In the face of the pestiferous but eventually harmless cloud that developed, one of the crew called first his family, then his country's emergency aid to find out what to do. The others were quite worried too. We were motoring in a nice and warm evening and by pure chance were near a marina. Once moored there, I slept in my cabin, the others on deck for fear of poisoning. Nothing ensued, but, I thought, what if an accident like that occurred in Mid Atlantic? I didn't want to be pursued by Swedish or American lawyer for the rest of my life. The following day I gave everybody back the money they already spent for food and wished them goodbye (we were near Las Palmas, where they could look for another lift). From now on, only family, old time friends (no cost sharing) or paid professionals aboard. And mind, I have a very comprehensive insurance for passengers.
Just my 2c.
 
@ctelfer38 :
So what is your opinion about the consequences of recruiting sites like Crewbay, Crewseekers, YM? A crew from that source falls outside the definition of family/friends. On Crewbay you need to fill in the financial deal (professional/recreational, then I marked 'shared costs'). I haven't seen any notification yet about the legal aspects - may be somewhere in fine print - of this. So one crosses the line using such sites?
 
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frans said:
@ctelfer38 :
So what is your opinion about the consequences of recruiting sites like Crewbay, Crewseekers, YM? A crew from that source falls outside the definition of family/friends. On Crewbay you need to fill in the financial deal (professional/recreational, then I marked 'shared costs'). I haven't seen any notification yet about the legal aspects - may be somewhere in fine print - of this. So you cross the line using such sites?
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Hello Frans your question is a good one; but you can be sure that these agencies will run a mile from liability/responsibility if having set up passages such as you describe you then use them to complete your manning roster with paying customers and dispute arises concerning legality of subsequent actions of either party. Look at their terms and conditions in vain for assurances that such arrangements are guaranteed to be non commercial. They are not but 'introducing' agencies with no role at policing the divide between commercial and private maritime activity. The latter is the role of national MCAs and tragic events of recent years has sharpened their intent to identify any malpractices in this area. - even if unwitting and unintentional.
Put briefly, if you invite 'strangers' aboard to crew your vessel for your purposes - either charge them nothing (or pay them!) or go commercial and charge them.
Identifying 'friends' for non commercial sailing is the difficult bit and judgment on the validity of that description will rest on how you got to know them, when and how that happened and how much money changed hands and for what purpose. It is a potential minefield - don't underestimate it. One good source of newer friends is via membership of an active sailing club and then only accept offers of a share of consumables. Good test of friendship.
None of this said to discourage. I like your photograph of lying peacefully at anchor
Best of luck to you
Charles B Telfer
 
jaba said:
Not much to add to what already said. Only that I aborted a Transatlantic last December mainly because the crew (found through a site, and sharing food expenses with me via a common kitty) reacted strongly to a domestic accident aboard. In short, 250 miles into the journey and still in view of land, to gush a sink I foolishly mixed two incompatible substances. In the face of the pestiferous but eventually harmless cloud that developed, one of the crew called first his family, then his country's emergency aid to find out what to do. The others were quite worried too. We were motoring in a nice and warm evening and by pure chance were near a marina. Once moored there, I slept in my cabin, the others on deck for fear of poisoning. Nothing ensued, but, I thought, what if an accident like that occurred in Mid Atlantic? I didn't want to be pursued by Swedish or American lawyer for the rest of my life. The following day I gave everybody back the money they already spent for food and wished them goodbye (we were near Las Palmas, where they could look for another lift). From now on, only family, old time friends (no cost sharing) or paid professionals aboard. And mind, I have a very comprehensive insurance for passengers.
Just my 2c.
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I would say that the crew, reacting so strongly, was may be not fit for the situation. That, obviously, is the risc of sailing with guys you're not familiar with. But it seems your selfconfidence got shocked too.
On my first trip to Brittany I had a comparable incident, although not caused by me: a crewmember set fire to the old school kerosine stove. Despise the fire drill he had a day before, all he could do is shout 'fire, fire!' I came in from the cockpitt, took the fire blanket and extinguished the fire. No big deal. In the café the same night he kept repeating that he couldn't understand hé was frozen, while I calmy did what was needed. The trip continued without incidents, everybody felt comfortable and safe.
When the stove caused another fire at the end of the season, I trew it overboard, figuratively. I have a Force 10 gasoven now.
 
maby said:
.........Your problems begin when something goes wrong - one of your visitors is killed or injured or the boat sinks ............ - but if you were to find yourself in court following a serious accident - or making a major insurance claim - then words like "fee" or "charge" would probably be very bad for your claim or defence.
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In this respect, the picture attached might be interesting. I took a group of mountaineers to the national mountain of Norway, the Stetind. They wanted to re-enact the first ascent, so a boat was needed to come close to the mountain. Afterwards we did some sailing, which they liked very much. Keen on action and odd angles for his camera, one of the guys wanted to be hoisted up into the mast. All yours I said.
It delivered the kind of pictures you like to have, but ok, it cóuld have gone wrong. Now, I guess he had a good insurance, being a pro climber, but would it cover climbing the mast of a ship under full sail? And my insurance for the sailing crew, would it cover mountaineering on board....
 

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frans said:
I would say that the crew, reacting so strongly, was may be not fit for the situation. That, obviously, is the risc of sailing with guys you're not familiar with. But it seems your selfconfidence got shocked too.
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Not really shocked ;-) I just changed plans & instead of crossing I sailed back from Canaries to Gibraltar with a friend: 1100 miles in 2 against wind & a couple of gales. I just decided it was not amusing to spend 20 days attending to what I considered an ill fitting crew, as you correctly say. And as I did not have any reason to cross the pond, if not the fun of it, I went back... enjoying the trip. Next year Spain and Aegean.
What I really meant with my little story, though, is that the legal risk to carry strangers (bigger risk if you make them pay), overcomes any pleasure. Either you get commercial, or you pay your crew. IMHO
 
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