Shared costs: what is considered reasonable?

jaba said:
... or you singlehand.
Click to expand...
I quit working in 2013 and started sailing 'seriously' with my 28ft Waarschip (a mahogany plywood dutch design). Twice to Channel Islands and Isles of Scilly, and a Round Brittain / Caledonian Canal trip of 4 months. All solo. I remember how in the Irish Sea I concluded 'This is a lonely enterprise....I should do it differently in the future...' When I bought the 44footer, I was determined to sail with company.

(Find a woman! Or two!)
 
Ohlin Karcher said:
So will you still be charging a daily rate for lifejackets, bedlinen and crockery?
Click to expand...
Give the man a break. He has come on here to test an aspect of his Big Plan, and has been told basically not to do it (from a UK angle). He must be disappointed and now needs encouragement and help towards a workable Plan B.(y)
Of course he is from the Netherlands and many of us have yet to forgive the Dutch for sacking our fleet at Chatham.:mad::mad::mad:
 
When I moved Capricious from the Clyde to Walton-on-the Naze, I needed a crew member to make it feasible, and my wife (my usual crew member) wasn't available for the whole time. A friend offered to come, and in return, I covered ALL the boat's expenses, including food while aboard (and quite often when ashore - it tended to depend on who was quickest to pick up the bill; he beat me to it a couple of times!). I also covered his train fare back home. Given that I couldn't have made the trip without his help and that of another forumite for one long passage, that seemed reasonable. I checked the insurance position before setting out, and my insurers were perfectly happy with it. Of course, the crew member was someone I already knew and was certainly in the "friends and family" category.

On other occasions I've lent Capricious to forum members who wished to experience another cruising area; in that case they obviously paid there own daily expenses, and I did not ask for any contribution to the running costs, though many were happy to make a donation!
 
Gwylan said:
Buy a purse,een portemonnee , on the first day everyone puts in £50. Go to the supermarket get stocked up for the journey and pay out of "the kitty"
Click to expand...
I'm sure the conversation has now moved on, but I hate this system - who carries cash these days?

In 2018, I crewed on other people's boats for 3-week and 2-week trips and the amount involved made cash quite inconvenient. At least some of that I was able to pay using my debit card and receive cash from other members.

Much prefer (for example) the Monzo debit card / app that allows you to "share this bill" with other Monzo cardholders.
 
Pleasure or commercial?
There should not be an element in any contribution to cover the capital costs of the vessel or any financial remuneration for the skipper/owner – if there is then the vessel is deemed to be operating for commercial gain and anyone paying such a fee is not classed as crew but as a passenger. This will alter the legal relationship and have insurance and liability implications.
British flagged vessels operating commercially must comply with the relevant Codes of Practice. These detail both the equipment a vessel must have on board and the Certificate of Competence required by the skipper (and in some cases the crew) of the vessel (other countries will have similar legislation).
Pleasure vessels are exempt from the Small Commercial Vessel Codes of Practice.
To be regarded as a pleasure vessel, rather than a commercial vessel, it is necessary, amongst other stipulations, to comply with this extract from the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004:
Section 2/Definitions.
“Pleasure vessel” as defined in the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004 includes the following extract
"the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may only receive money for, or in connection with, the operation of the vessel or the carrying of any person in the vessel as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion.?
Read the full legal definition of a pleasure vessel:
The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998
As you can see, therefore, the owner of a vessel requesting more than a contribution towards the direct expenses may be deemed to be operating the vessel commercially, however, the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency does not specify what represents a reasonable contribution. It is up to each skipper and crew to agree what that figure might be with due regard to the nature of the voyage, the sailing area, the size and type of the vessel, and the expectations of the living standards aboard!
These financial arrangements may affect how the crew works together – if a crew pays a passage fee or daily rate, are they part of the working crew or on holiday? If the owner pays for everything, are the crew effectively employees without the benefits that might be expected of that position.
 
KompetentKrew said:
I'm sure the conversation has now moved on, but I hate this system - who carries cash these days? In 2018, I crewed on other people's boats for 3-week and 2-week trips and the amount involved made cash quite inconvenient. At least some of that I was able to pay using my debit card and receive cash from other members. Much prefer (for example) the Monzo debit card / app that allows you to "share this bill" with other Monzo cardholders.
Click to expand...

I do and so do most of our sailing friends. Cash kitty is the norm when we have friends staying on board or, when a crowd of go out for a meal, we just divide the bill by the number there. Still quite a few cash discounts around when I don't need an invoice or use a card. No smartphone, no apps.
 
We have a cash kitty. Simples, no discussions about who paid for what. Step onboard off load your cash and off we go. At the end of the trip we sit down and divy our what is left.
 
Sandy said:
We have a cash kitty. Simples, no discussions about who paid for what. Step onboard off load your cash and off we go. At the end of the trip we sit down and divy our what is left.
Click to expand...
Not into cash at all - home or onboard - very inconvenient. We just note on one phone each amount paid for shared stuff and pay for it all ourselves - then let the friends know at the end what they owe by dividing it equally. Meals out together are paid separately per couple.
 
RupertW said:
Not into cash at all - home or onboard - very inconvenient. We just note on one phone each amount paid for shared stuff and pay for it all ourselves - then let the friends know at the end what they owe by dividing it equally. Meals out together are paid separately per couple.
Click to expand...

Maybe it depends on where you sail and what currency being used, costs of using cards etc.
 
Ohlin Karcher said:
So will you still be charging a daily rate for lifejackets, bedlinen and crockery?
Click to expand...
Just to inform you, and Mr Karcher in special:
What I will, and will not 'charge' has not yet been defined yet, as I want to dig deeper into the legal aspects of commercial versus pleasure yachting.
As shown before, there are two elements that seem to push me to the commercial side:
- the invitation of crewmembers by public sites like Crewbay;
- the contribution for crew stuff like the lifejackets etc.
Although most comment is focused on the depreciation, the first element has the deepest impact, as it formally would prevent me ( and many others) to complete my crew. It might be the main reason to turn ' commercial'.
I have not yet found the Dutch version of the Merchant ... Regulations mentioned above.
I have contacted one of the survey companies to which the classification of commercial vessels is delegated, Register Holland Class. The first step is to judge to which class the yacht belongs, defined by its size, in particular the load line. Once the class is known, the formal demands would become clear. I hope.
I intend to create an overview of the material demands to the yacht and the desired qualifications of the skipper (+ crew), plus the consequences for the insurance. Where the first two can be seen as usefull improvements - a safer ship is a safer ship -, the last could be a burden too large to carry.
 
frans said:
Just to inform you, and Mr Karcher in special:
What I will, and will not 'charge' has not yet been defined yet, as I want to dig deeper into the legal aspects of commercial versus pleasure yachting.
As shown before, there are two elements that seem to push me to the commercial side:
- the invitation of crewmembers by public sites like Crewbay;
...
Click to expand...

Inviting crew to join you is definitely NOT an issue. Inviting them to share the costs associated with the voyage (food, fuel, harbour dues) is NOT an issue. Asking them to contribute to the depreciation and wear and tear of the vessel and its gear crosses the line. This is my understanding and is not legal advice - although I am involved professionally in the yachting industry and have chartered out boats and been involved in commercial coding of boats so I'm supposed to know something about these things..
 
john_morris_uk said:
Inviting crew to join you is definitely NOT an issue. Inviting them to share the costs associated with the voyage (food, fuel, harbour dues) is NOT an issue. Asking them to contribute to the depreciation and wear and tear of the vessel and its gear crosses the line. This is my understanding and is not legal advice - although I am involved professionally in the yachting industry and have chartered out boats and been involved in commercial coding of boats so I'm supposed to know something about these things..
Click to expand...

Does it cross the line? Asking the same question about costs for car sharing, there are various comments from insurers and at least two say that reasonable costs for depreciation relevant to the shared journeys are allowed. The comments though are aimed more I think at an ongoing share e.g 5 days/week share to and from work, rather than single journey charges. It's a very grey area and personally, I would want guidelines from MCA and insurers before making any arrangements.
 
Graham376 said:
Does it cross the line? Asking the same question about costs for car sharing, there are various comments from insurers and at least two say that reasonable costs for depreciation relevant to the shared journeys are allowed. The comments though are aimed more I think at an ongoing share e.g 5 days/week share to and from work, rather than single journey charges. It's a very grey area and personally, I would want guidelines from MCA and insurers before making any arrangements.
Click to expand...

Yes it very much crosses the line. No comparison with car sharing.

The official guidance I was given many years ago when the coding of commercial vessels first came out (and I was involved in a small way) was that you can't even 'offer to buy someone a new sail as a gift' in exchange for the use of their yacht.

Of course if you wish to take the risk and chance your arm and potentially end up in court explaining yourself then that is your business.
 
Graham376 said:
Maybe it depends on where you sail and what currency being used, costs of using cards etc.
Click to expand...
Having had two summers cruising the Baltic with friends, I can honestly say it was almost impossinle to spend actual cash anywhere. Marina fees through an automatic machine, diesel at a card -reading bowser , resteraunts and cafes that won't take cash, etc etc.

We just kept a record and the ones who had spent the least met the next bill - almost zero cash changed hands at the end to even it out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top