Shared costs: what is considered reasonable?

[Mr Cassandra]

I sail in some of the nicest spots in the Aegean, I am based in a very nice town of Porto Rafti 20 miles from Athens , I have many close Greek friends , so there no desperate need to go sailing , I do use crewing sites and if I go sailing with crew ,I don't think € 25 a day all in, is excessive ,this averages out for food on the boat ,diesel, harbour costs, laundry and boat incidental ...
When you think that probably the charter yacht next to you costs the crew € 3000 a week ,plus food and costs...... I think I offer very good value and defiantly don't make a profit ,closer to a lose . I sail a First 45.

 

[atol]

we did this for many years,including 2 circumnavigations we found charging £15/pp/day was more than enough to run the boat.
this also co-insided with using crewseekers.co.uk to find crew,and the maximum amount that crewseekers considered to be an acceptable amount to ask as a contribution on their site and not be considered a commercial venture.

we did however say alcohol and extra marina time other than what was provided to the crew on a normal voyage was not included ,but the option to stay longer or buy extra duty free was offered if paid for by the crew or person

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

we did this for many years,including 2 circumnavigations we found charging £15/pp/day was more than enough to run the boat.
this also co-insided with using crewseekers.co.uk to find crew,and the maximum amount that crewseekers considered to be an acceptable amount to ask as a contribution on their site and not be considered a commercial venture.

we did however say alcohol and extra marina time other than what was provided to the crew on a normal voyage was not included ,but the option to stay longer or buy extra duty free was offered if paid for by the crew or person

My crew also have permission to buy extra duty-free

 

[LadyInBed]

The basic idea was to bring people to places only reached by sea, for climbing, kayaking, diving, you name it. The boat would be a kind of floating basecamp. I help them to get there, they show me extraordinary places I wouldn't visit without them.
I don't want to do this on a commercial basis. That's another league. I sketch a trip and people can join with related destinations and activities

You might not want to do it on a commercial basis but what you describe sounds commercial to me!

 

[Graham376]

As a Dutch skipper of a 44ft Koopmans - living aboard, sailing 8 mnths/yr - I am often looking for 'opstappers' as we call it, crew that jumps on and off during a planned journey. This summer I planned a passage to the Azores, with a starting leg along the English south and a long finish to Vigo, Bordeaux, Brest etc.
I'm used to, or shall I say, we, the Dutch, are used to share the daily costs of such a trip. I wonder if this is a common habit in England too, and which daily costs seem reasonable to include.

Your case is different to having friends on board for a holiday. I would be looking at sharing the costs of the trip (fuel, food, meals ashore, marina/mooring costs etc) but not costs associated with maintaining the boat which you would have to do anyway as owner.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

If I were to message you through facebook and say my wife, I and another couple (all sailors capable of taking watch, crewing etc ) wanted to spend 60 days in say the Swedish Archipelago this August and were willing to pay € 25-€50 pp pd would you accept?

 

[ShinyShoe]

Crew recruitement
So, formally in the UK you're not a pleasure craft when you have a crew recruited by open sources. So all crewing sites like Crewbay and even the 'Crewing opportunities' of YBW lead to illegal sailing?

Not entirely sure that would stand in court.

I can download an app to my phone. Slide eight or left a few times and in theory some woman I've never met in my life before could be between my sheets a few hours later (so I'm told!!). At what point does she become a 'friend'? I gather the done thing these days is to split the cost of the meal 50:50 too.

But. If I put a picture of me in my speedos on a bill board outside the local food Bank saying 'free dinner and more' I may be perceived as crossing a line. I think that is how the MCA have said they see things... A sailing dedicated website where people with a mutual interest can meet - OK. Advertising to people who have no knowledge of sailing and are effectively passengers - you will need to explain what else it is you have in common that means you are "friends"...

 

[frans]

If I were to message you through facebook and say my wife, I and another couple (all sailors capable of taking watch, crewing etc ) wanted to spend 60 days in say the Swedish Archipelago this August and were willing to pay € 25-€50 pp pd would you accept?

I would say 'Sorry, a year too late...'. I'm up to the Azores now. In 2021 may be Greenland, but that's probably with some climbing friends. And 60 days with óne crew never met before is too long. It's my home, you know, I maximise 'new' crew to two weeks.
And you misunderstood the way I prefer to co-operate with an ambitious crew: I sketch a plan with a destination, and search for teams that have ideas about that spot. For instance, I hope to find one or two marine biologists for the Azores - whale-watching! Only if a dedicated team of adventurers would ask me to bring them to a specific spot - which is also on my bucketlist - it could be turned around.

 

[frans]

You might not want to do it on a commercial basis but what you describe sounds commercial to me!

Well, if it sounds commercial to you, it tells more about you, than about me. I do meet a lot of disbelief about this plan, you are not the first one, it seems people just can't imagine that someone would set up such an enterprise for fun. The result is scepticism and suspicion, rather disappointing, it's also impossible to defend me against it: 'No, I am NOT paid!' 'Yeah yeah... you say so...'
May be you forgot who HW Tilman was? Read him, may be something of that fire passes to you.

 

[maby]

Well, if it sounds commercial to you, it tells more about you, than about me. I do meet a lot of disbelief about this plan, you are not the first one, it seems people just can't imagine that someone would set up such an enterprise for fun. The result is scepticism and suspicion, rather disappointing, it's also impossible to defend me against it: 'No, I am NOT paid!' 'Yeah yeah... you say so...'
May be you forgot who HW Tilman was? Read him, may be something of that fire passes to you.

I think you need to take a step back and think about the presentation of what you are proposing to do and the circumstances under which it might become a problem. As has been stated above, the exact rules vary from one country to another, but you can probably assume that all advanced countries will have laws that control "commercial shipping" - laws that you will want to avoid because they will require you to spend time and money preparing your boat (and, quite possibly, yourself) to receive your passengers. Provided all the people traveling with you cooperate and you don't have any accidents, nobody outside your boat will be aware of any exchange of money and you can do anything that is mutually acceptable to you and your visitors - stand on the pontoon and refuse to let them aboard until they have handed over a sum of money that you are specifying. That would certainly be illegal in Britain and, I suspect it would be in most of Europe. Your problems begin when something goes wrong - one of your visitors is killed or injured or the boat sinks and they lose all their valuable possessions - doesn't everyone go sailing wearing a Rolex and carrying a Hasselblad? At that point, the way in which you presented the relationship with your visitors becomes very important and could leave you looking at bankruptcy or even imprisonment.

Be very careful about presentation - particularly when communicating in a language that is not your native tongue. Your English is excellent - but if you were to find yourself in court following a serious accident - or making a major insurance claim - then words like "fee" or "charge" would probably be very bad for your claim or defence.

 

[obmij]

It does sound commercial - not that there is anything wrong with that!

Ultimately, you are not going to get anywhere by asking people on the internet. Why not contact your flag state and ask them?

Personally, I would ensure the vessel was coded & adequately insured. Then I would be free to charge as much or as little as I liked.

If you choose not to go down this route, but still charge a daily fee over and above what would be reasonably understood as cost sharing. The chances are you will get away with it unless something goes wrong.

Getting away with it is not really a seaman-like approach though.

Your call really.

 

[frans]

I think you need to take a step back and think about the presentation of what you are proposing to do and the circumstances under which it might become a problem.
..........

Be prepared for the worst.....
It might be sensible to check what the Dutch authorities have to say about this. What I do know about fi commercial sailing schools is not very impressive in terms of demands.
And where my insurance draws the line. I do have a very good liability and accident coverage, also towards the crew.
In one of the posts above someone stated that one should nót follow a protocol that is too formal, because that would only strengthen the impression that you are commercially active. Here we have a dialectic issue: it might be sensible to present each crewmember a kind of disclaimer, to confirm that he joins on his/her own risk and is not charged a contribution above the running costs bla bla. But this formalises the relation with the crew , with possibly the countereffect of breaking some MCA rule...

 

[PHN]

Well, if it sounds commercial to you, it tells more about you, than about me. I do meet a lot of disbelief about this plan, you are not the first one, it seems people just can't imagine that someone would set up such an enterprise for fun. The result is scepticism and suspicion, rather disappointing, it's also impossible to defend me against it: 'No, I am NOT paid!' 'Yeah yeah... you say so...'
May be you forgot who HW Tilman was? Read him, may be something of that fire passes to you.

There is a difference between your intentions and official regulations. We all have to deal with regulations whether we like it or not.

What you are describing is from a regulations point of view a "not for profit foundation", better known as "charity". Have a look at various sailing charities and find out how they run their "business".

From a "customer/friend" point of view how do I know it is safe, reliable, etc? There are various consumer protection laws. If I don't get what I want or if I have some kind of bad experience where can I go to complain? In case of serious issues your "customer/friend" will definitely search long enough to find a "listening ear" with authorities/insurance/etc... to enforce a claim. You do have obligations to your passengers and some of these obligations are mandatory by regulation.

"Disclaimers" as you mention are not legally binding under Dutch law as far as I know. You need a lawyer for that. You simply cannot forfeit certain rights you have under the law, regardless what document you sign.

I have sailed several times as a "paying friend" all over the world similar to your plans. Some skippers are still friends with whome I continue sailing and some are not.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Be prepared for the worst.....
It might be sensible to check what the Dutch authorities have to say about this. What I do know about fi commercial sailing schools is not very impressive in terms of demands.

Likely:
Distance from port of departure / safe haven which you may not want
Commercial endorsed certificates which may or may not be a hassle
Extra insurance

In one of the posts above someone stated that one should nót follow a protocol that is too formal, because that would only strengthen the impression that you are commercially active. Here we have a dialectic issue: it might be sensible to present each crewmember a kind of disclaimer, to confirm that he joins on his/her own risk and is not charged a contribution above the running costs bla bla. But this formalises the relation with the crew , with possibly the countereffect of breaking some MCA rule...

I think formalities are bad. If I got a lift from a mate in a car and said I would pay fuel costs and he whips out a disclaimer I'd be worried!!

If you are picking up crew online, it becomes easy to build the documentation by email / even text message without getting signatures...

"When I sail with friends we normally try to share costs for food and fuel. We usually put about £25 a day in the kitty. Does that sound OK?" In an email will be useful evidence

Also using words like friend in the email could be good. Not an email that says "You are now officially my friend" but something like "I am looking forward to meeting you. It is always a joy to welcome new friends aboard"

If your new friend feels this is a purely business transaction they should be flagging it up.

People have mentioned 'cost' and 'fee' as language to be careful of. You also used enterprise which isn't strictly a business, but would most commonly be used in a business sense.

Some other thoughts. If I was a MCA paper pusher... I might want to know how quickly you stop being friends! Do you send these friends a Christmas card (or Christmas email) after your "business-like" transactions have completed? Do your emails just do 'social' or are they cloaked marketing for your next adventure. (Tricky, because my email to a sailing buprobabsy might say 'happy new year. Hoping to sail to X this year, let me know if you are interested in joining me' but might that be cloaked marketing?
Probably better to have some completely invitation free messages that can be used to say this is not marketing.

 

[LadyInBed]

Well, if it sounds commercial to you, it tells more about you, than about me. I do meet a lot of disbelief about this plan, you are not the first one, it seems people just can't imagine that someone would set up such an enterprise for fun. The result is scepticism and suspicion, rather disappointing, it's also impossible to defend me against it: 'No, I am NOT paid!' 'Yeah yeah... you say so...'
May be you forgot who HW Tilman was? Read him, may be something of that fire passes to you.

If you don't like the answers you get, maybe you shouldn't ask the question!
You start by asking about cost sharing but then expand to describe a venture which to me and some others sounds to be commercial.

 

[[70521]]

Sounds pretty commercial to me. Frans really needs to discuss his proposal with his national authorities. Lawyers are going to have a field day with this should anything happen and it came to court without written notification from his national authorities stating that what he is suggesting is commercial or not.

 

[Daydream believer]

Not entirely sure that would stand in court.

I can download an app to my phone. Slide eight or left a few times and in theory some woman I've never met in my life before could be between my sheets a few hours later (so I'm told!!).


B..gg..r me!!! they don't do one where I could get my missus in my bed that quick , do they??

 

[ShinyShoe]

B..gg..r me!!! they don't do one where I could get my missus in my bed that quick , do they??

Seems if your missus catches you using the app you get sent to the spare room that quick!

 

[Talulah]

Car analogy: Suppose I give a colleague a lift to work. 60 miles round trip. I think everyone on here is happy to share petrol costs. Assume I only use the car to get to and from work.
Supposing to pick up the colleague requires a 5 mile detour. Adding 10 miles a day to my trip. Am I ok to charge the full cost of the additional petrol? Now 10 miles a day is approximately 3000 miles a year. Servicing is every 12000 miles. So the colleague should pay the full cost of 25% of the service and split equally the remains 50%. There’s more. The extra 3000 miles is costing an additional £300 in depreciation. So he should pay the extra depreciation.
The above calculation is what my father did to a colleague. Initially the colleague wasn’t happy as he thought my father was taking the Micky. But father is not making any money. This is the true cost of giving the lift.
When it comes to boating I would say if the additional cost was solely for the benefit of the friend wether it be lifejacket, waterproofs etc then they should pay. The difference is they can provide their own if they want to. If they don’t bring their own or aren’t happy to borrow at cost then perhaps they are not really the type to have on board.

 

[frans]

If you don't like the answers you get, maybe you shouldn't ask the question!
You start by asking about cost sharing but then expand to describe a venture which to me and some others sounds to be commercial.

The line of events:
I posted a call on 'crewing opportunities' for a trip to the Azores which got a lot of comments suggesting it was commercial, and in the end was removed. Probably based on the fact that I included an amount for the depreciation of the safety gear for the crew, besides the more or less standard shared daily costs.
To gain more insight in what the Britisch ( my aim at YM) found acceptable, I posted this question.
The reactions, which soon spreaded out to legal issues where the words 'stand in court' repeatedly could be found, baffled me. I always experienced the Brit as witty and relaxed, but this....
In two responses I tried to wrap it up in a kind of conclusion - the final declaration of this chaotic conference - and added some background of my intentions on the long run: being an expedition ship for adventurous groups. It is this venture that you, and others, can't but see as commercial. What can I say? Read Tilman?
The discussion did turned my focus to the possible negative effects of not having created a clear legal frame for 'sailing with invited strangers'. That's something I need to dig into.

PS Why does someone chooses the nickname LadyinBed???? ?