Shared costs: what is considered reasonable?

[frans]

The trip is on Crewbay (in the private recreational section) as well, stating a fee for lifejackets, in addition to all other costs being shared between crew.
'Koopmans 44 Samuels' if anyone wants to look.

And there is a FB page Grote Janne. There is a series of stories about the last trip in Norway, which also shows how 'big' the crew is that you can get with such ventures: 11 over a period of 4 months, a total of... 116 crewdays. Which is less than 25%. For those who seem to think that sailing is a kind of goldmine.

 

[doug748]

I know nothing about this topic at all, nothing. But it is interesting. A little bit of investigation turned up this RYA page:

Five minute briefing - MCA Coding | Up to Speed | e-newsletters | News & Events | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

So as long as you are not making "commercial gain" or asking people to make "unreasonable contributions" you have, on the face of it, a reasonable case to say you are not operating as a business.

It might be unwise to make any form of booking arrangement, to take deposits or run a separate bank account for the boat. Make it clear to everyone that you have worked out a rough, maybe weekly, figure for everyone to contribute (including yourself) and that any excess will be carried over and should any be left at the end of the trip will be split up or spent on a final closing party.
Let everyone know what is, and is not, included in their contribution - still some may want lobster and fine wine every day but that's a separate set of problems
:- )

PS
Of course this is from a UK perspective and you will need to dig a bit deeper.

 

[Ceejay]

What does this 'coding' imply? Does it counts for every boat, whether or not it is foreign? Whether or not it has any Britisch citizen on board? I wouldn't mind for some paperwork.
Seen the fact the boat is fully equipped, I expect it can pass any survey. Something else are the needed qualifications, I have a RYA YM Offshore, but not commercially endorsed.

The regulations are a minefield. The following paragraph is lifted from this page, and seems to possibly relate to your operation. Vessel classification and certification

Further reading follows on from that which may be of use to you.

“The Codes regulations and classifications apply to UK registered vessels and all other vessels which are registered or owned in another country but operate from a UK port while in UK waters“

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../268868/mgn489-amendment-pleasure-vessels.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ploads/attachment_data/file/835124/mgn280.pdf

Pleasure Vessels and the UK Merchant Shipping Regulations | Pleasure Craft Regulations | Regulations | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

 

[newtothis]

I have already experienced that Mr Ohlin Karcher shows an interest above average in my posts. A sign of our times is the attraction that social media seem to have to commentators, keen to express their superior opinions. Cynicism is one of their weapons.
Yes, Mr Karcher, I do have bought duvets, cushions and bedlinnen, pot and pans, a dinner set, glasses and everything that's needed to turn a single man household into that of a family. And these things break on ships, and you also would like that your bedsheet has passed a laundry when you sleep aboard, wouldn't you? How despicable is it to ask a contribution for that?
I can't tell if you have any experience with a crew longer than a few days, but I grant you the joy, and the drawbacks, and then let us speak again.

Um, you asked a question. He answered. You don't agree with the answer.
Having read this thread, and being the first one to question the €25k you were charging for four months' sailing when you advertised on the crewing forum, I'd say the general consensus of forum members is that your cost proposal doesn't hold water.
If you're charging for services other than direct costs [bedding/safety equipment] you're not really offering a shared-cost sail. Why not charge a bit more for your annual anti-fouling and haul-out charges as well?
If you're providing those things with an eye to taking crew, then charging for them, then you're running a commercial venture.
If you want people to help out with a bit of crewing and want them to pay for their own food and drink, then you're offering a shared-cost sailing experience.
But don't shoot the messenger who doesn't agree with what you're trying to convince others of.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Rules will be based on the flagging of the boat not the nationality of the passengers.

The MCA in the UK seem to have started to take more notice of things in the grey areas after a high profile incident or two.

In the UK your survey will need a load of kit including testing etc that you may already have. Depending where sailing may require physical structural changes to hull (watertight bulk head) etc.

Manning. Commercially endorsed YM. But not just one.,. Need commercial watch keeping...

Will reply some more thoughts later on what is commercially accepted in UK when find links

 

[lw395]

To quote from the MCA words whjch Ceejay linked to:
1. Introduction 1.1 Pleasure vessels are vessels used for sport or recreational purposes and do not operate for financial gain. A more extensive legal definition is provided by the Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) 1998 (SI 1998/2771), as amended. This definition is reproduced below: "pleasure vessel" means- (a) any vessel which at the time it is being used is: (i) (aa) in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or (bb) in the case of a vessel owned by a body corporate, used only for sport or pleasure and on which the persons on board are employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends; and (ii) on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion; or (b) any vessel wholly owned by or on behalf of a members' club formed for the purpose of sport or pleasure which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or - 2 - pleasure of members of that club or their immediate family, and for the use of which any charges levied are paid into club funds and applied for the general use of the club; and (c) in the case of any vessel referred to in paragraphs (a) or (b) above no other payments are made by or on behalf of users of the vessel, other than by the owner. In this definition "immediate family" meansin relation to an individual, the spouse or civil partner of the individual, and a relative of the individual or the individual's spouse or civil partner; and "relative" means brother, sister, ancestor or lineal descendant;

My bold, sorry about the tabulation.

So, you are commercial if you are using your boat for the amusement of people who are not friends or family.
I know a lot of people bend this rule.
But you need to be very careful touting your vessel to the public at large. Even for free.
I wonder if the limits of a 'friend' have been tested in law?

Also only direct costs incurred on that voyage may be shared.

 

[Gwylan]

je moet begrijpen dat er hier een groot verschil bestaat tussen Nederlanders en Engelse

Buy a purse,een portemonnee , on the first day everyone puts in £50. Go to the supermarket get stocked up for the journey and pay out of "the kitty"
Owner fills the diesel tank and pays the marina, set off.
Carry on the journey and pay costs, more food, marina and so on out of kitty. Top up as you go along.
At the end of the journey see how many hours you have run the engine and charge kitty £5 per hour.
Whatever is left you divide up amongst the crew and captain.

Next leg of the journey start again.

If you blow a sail or whatever that is owner or captain's problem.

If you are a good captain and they are a reasonable crew they may treat you to a meal .
Sailing is like skiing, if you have to look at the cost then maybe you need a different hobby.

 

[duncan99210]

We use the system Gwylan uses. We get several sets of friends joining us for a week or so in Greek waters. They come to visit on the basis that we offer free accommodation and sailing but they will contribute to any expenses during their stay. The kitty covers food, fuel, port fees, meals and drinks out and any other bits of expenditure such as laundry.
Any problems with the boat are our problem and the kitty doesn’t stretch to getting guests back to the airport at the end of their stay....
If works well for us and our guests, who often choose to take us out for a meal on their last night aboard.
This differs from when we had crew join us for a a Biscay crossing, where we covered all their expenses including travel back to UK, because we needed them more than they needed the miles at sea.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I could swear I read an MCA post with a price limit that would raise an eyebrow. I can't recall how much - possibly <£30.

That's not to say you couldn't share more, bit you'd need to explain the maths.

I've seen every arguement under the sun.

watchkeeping is commercial
Except if you said come along on my boat, give me £50. Don't lift a finger. That sounds like you are an Uber at sea. If you said to a friend who was driving to Southampton boat show why don't we take 1 car and split the fuel and driving that doesn't sound commercial.

advertising for crew can't be friends
That is irrelevant of the crew contribution part. Friend is untested in law. It's not unreasonable to make friends on-line who have a shared interest. However, I do know of a RIB owner who was advertising for friends outside of the boating world who he would then take on trips. MCA paid him a visit. Told him to stop if he didn't want to test it in court.

What classifies as friends these days is tricky. I have colleagues who are 'friends' on Facebook..would I describe them as friends. No. Would i take them in my car or boat on a journey I was doing anyway... Yes. Would I "entertain them on a jolly with me providing champagne etc, in response to them saying 'can we come on your boat'"... Nope! Mind you, I don't do that kind of thing anyways. I have been invited to 'friends' (colleagues) houses for drink and nibbles parties (my idea of hell).

you don't charge friends
I don't! If we go back to the driving example..I'd drive and not charge fuel. I doubt their weight added much to my Costs. But I feel nice when they offer.. and perhaps if they paid my dinner I wouldn't fight them over it. I certainly have friends who would take the money. I wouldn't feel ripped off. They are far less financially sorted than me


Marina fees
Possibly the most controversial. If the marina charges by boat and not crew there are likely no extra costs... But if I drove to the boat show and parked the car there would be no extra costs, yet i doubt anyone would see paying half parking and half fuel as commercial...

share of wear and tear
Much more dubious. If everyone chucks £25 in a kitty each day and at the end of the week the skipper tries to give back £20 excess and the crew say 'no keep it for wear and tear' that sounds legit.

If a rope is damaged or a fender lost and the crew pay for it, probably OK. Just like if driving to boat show my mate paid for a puncture to be fixed I'm not sure that's commercial. If I whip.out a spreadsheet showing my car purchase, depreciation, mot cost, screen was, valley fees and suggest a daily or mileage based fee (a) I expect to be laughed at (b) it's commercial.

gear costs
I'm not feeling it's good to say 'contribute' to life jackets etc. I'd be saying 'provide your own' some of my friends could. If a friend doesn't have one I may have a spare they can borrow.. if I didn't... Either if I want them along I will sort it, or if they really want to come and I'm feeling it's more for them than me... I might say they'd need to get one. I've done that with a friend walking before where I pointed them to suitable budget shops for walking gear.

Nothing is clear cut. You want to be confident you can defend what you do in court. Anything too formal or shared across multiple trips sounds increasingly commercial...

 

[scottie]

Buying the equipment and expecting to cover the cost might seem reasonable but is not perhaps in this instance as there are strict peramiters out side which insurance and legal requirements take over
as previously posted contributions towards daily cost are normally disregarded but charges are definitely out and advertising the charges only makes it worse
i am sure that many people like myself have had standing arrangements that have evolved over time which are technically wrong though

 

[gertha]

Here is what I do.
I am UK flag, am aware of all rules, regs and liability other posts discussed.
Have used boat and sailing style in the same way for over 10 years.
My sailing is blue water , off shore long distance . With crew off internet .
This is a private boat and not set up for charter or reward.

Any crew pay to get to start and home from finish, equal share of food and drink.
To ask any money to cover any other costs could be making me liable if the was a casualty.

The cost of running boat is about £ 2 per mile if you take all costs of maintenance. This is what I know.
There are many boats charging for sailing who can legally, morally and honestly charge for time on boat.
Take £ 2 multiply by 150 miles per day , so £ 300 per day, divide by 4 crew, you can justify a fair lump and still put up a good defence if you end in court.
Historicaly £ 10 per day was a fair amount.
Times are changing as we have pressure to stop flying and little Swedish birds preaching.
I chose not to charge.

In practice I find most crew generous when paying for day to day costs.
The only exception I find is the ARC, many people wish to enjoy the event and as a result I ask for a contribution.

 

[hrchivers]

Most advice above re costs seems sensible, my practice is to share the cost of food only, since without the crew I would single-hand and pay roughly the same for marinas/boat/fuel etc.

It may (or may not) help to read the formal definition in the UK Merchant Shipping (Vessel in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998. The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998

(If not a 'pleasure vessel, then you have to worry about commercial codes, which are fairly extensive.) Some words from the regulation [Interpretation 2._1]:

"Pleasure vessel means:
...the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage...
...no other payments are made by or on behalf of users of the vessel, other than by the owner ..."

 

[john_morris_uk]

Rules will be based on the flagging of the boat not the nationality of the passengers.

The MCA in the UK seem to have started to take more notice of things in the grey areas after a high profile incident or two.

In the UK your survey will need a load of kit including testing etc that you may already have. Depending where sailing may require physical structural changes to hull (watertight bulk head) etc.

Manning. Commercially endorsed YM. But not just one.,. Need commercial watch keeping...

Will reply some more thoughts later on what is commercially accepted in UK when find links

Crewing depends on area of operation.

 

[frans]

..
Having read this thread, and being the first one to question the €25k you were charging for four months' sailing when you advertised on the crewing forum, I'd say the general consensus of forum members is that your cost proposal doesn't hold water.
...

€25k.... I wish it was tru.... in 2018 I had 11 crewmembers. 11. For a total of 116 days over 4 months ( 4x120=480 days). We shared food/fuel/harbour/laundry. If I would have charged them the now suggested €10 for the crew's stuff, I would have gained a massive €1160. I just calculated the actual costs over 10 years for the equipment involved: €578/yr. So my profit would be, mea culpa, €582.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

It's a nice yacht and I'm sure you have pleasant cruises. There might be a language problem here as well as differing views on what is normal or fair.
You say you "charged" crew. In English this word, in this context, means that it is not a sharing arrangement but a commercial arrangement. You just can't say that without sounding like a business. You have to make it crystal clear it is equal sharing, and only for things like food and possibly marinas if you would not have gone in there anyway. Not even diesel really, because the yacht needs it anyway. Definitely not lifejackets or MOB devices, and as for crockery...
Lots of good advice and links above, all in broad agreement, which should plainly show the answer to your original question.

 

[Wansworth]

In this world of litigation I would inquire with your insurance company,layout your position and see what they say

 

[Uricanejack]

I don’t know,
it’s complicated. Lot of room for fudging. The authorities probably won’t take any notice until it all goes pear shaped.

The Storm Force case is a rather extreme example, of a fudged pleasure voyage being ruled a commercial voyage after a tragedy.
Where is the line?

To my mind.

Personally, when I invite a friend to go sailing. I don’t ask for or expect a contribution. Most of my friends happen to know, what kind of Malts I enjoy. (Islay, is my favourite, though not always my friends favourite). Same goes for beer.
When I go sailing with friends. I’ve never been asked for a contribution. However I know their preferences. Any arrangements are very informal. I will ask, would you like me to bring anything? Even if nothing is requested, I will anyway. Or I will go ashore and by something for dinner ect.

BYOB. Bring some grub, or go together to select and pay for groceries at the store. Even one chap goes and does the shopping pays up front brigs the receipt. For division later. Or even everyone pulls 50 or 100 bucks out their pocket and puts it on the table, then the chief cook and bottle washer goes and does the shopping. The point being it’s informal. Probably not even accurate. This could apply to sailing, camping, canoeing or any other kind of trip. Even sharing a cottage for the weekend.
I would think, this informal arrangement. Will probably fall on the pleasure trip side of the line.

Giving a rough estimate ahead of time to what you expect the cost of expenses such as fuel, grub, marina, rally or race fees may add up to. Broken down to an estimated amount. To worked out later depending upon actual costs. Is probably still ok.

If your ball park or rough estimate turns out to be the actual amount of required contribution at the end of the day. You are either, hell of a good at guessing, or it looks like you figured out a business plan.

When you make a formal request for silver to cross your palm. You are possibly crossing a line. As soon as you ask for a specific daily, weekly or monthly rate. You are at risk if something goes wrong. 5 bucks 50 bucks or 500 bucks. It looks like walks like and quacks like a fee. If you look at crew wanted threads on forums. The daily rate appears to be a common practice. It often looks like someone is subsidizing their sailing, by earning a small fee. To recover their costs. Even if it might suck as a business model.

The informal contribution on the top may even be more than the formal daily rate.

As for linen. Certainly wouldn’t have occurred to me to be a friends contribution. Though I do look on sailing as similar to camping. Most people bring their own sleeping bag,

 

[frans]

je moet begrijpen dat er hier een groot verschil bestaat tussen Nederlanders en Engelse

Buy a purse,een portemonnee , on the first day everyone puts in £50. Go to the supermarket get stocked up for the journey and pay out of "the kitty"
Owner fills the diesel tank and pays the marina, set off.
Carry on the journey and pay costs, more food, marina and so on out of kitty. Top up as you go along.
At the end of the journey see how many hours you have run the engine and charge kitty £5 per hour.
Whatever is left you divide up amongst the crew and captain.

Next leg of the journey start again.

If you blow a sail or whatever that is owner or captain's problem.

If you are a good captain and they are a reasonable crew they may treat you to a meal .
Sailing is like skiing, if you have to look at the cost then maybe you need a different hobby.

Beste Gwylan, wat zie jij als het grote verschil tussen Nederlanders en Engelsen in this respect?
Het is me onderhand duidelijk dat als je de Engelsen er naar vraagt, er plots zeer scherpe en formele standpunten kunnen worden ingenomen. Misschien is het beter je kaarten niet op tafel te leggen, zoals Nederlanders 'botweg' gewend zijn om te doen.
De 'kitty' vorm is simpel, alleen is het tegenwoordig een appje ' Wie betaalt Wat', met het 'nadeel' dat er aan het eind van de rit geen bedrag in de kitty blijft hangen wat de bemanning dan ruimhartig aan de schipper kan schenken. Modern times.

 

[LittleSister]

equal sharing, and only for things like food and possibly marinas if you would not have gone in there anyway. Not even diesel really, because the yacht needs it anyway. Definitely not lifejackets or MOB devices, and as for crockery...

That would be my take on it, too, at least as a starting point for anything more that a day or two sail (which I'd expect would be handled informally as per Uricanejack's post) - i.e. generally the running costs of the boat itself are the owner's responsibility, as I see it, and the crew might well contribute to the food/drink and any additional costs they impose (e.g. wanting to visit somewhere the skipper didn't intend).

People do have differing expectations, though, so it is important to clarify what each person's expectations are in advance (I found out the hard way a few years back!).

I have no problem with an element of negotiation/flexibility either way, and what would be fair will depend to some extent on the relative circumstances of the parties and the nature of the trip.

Someone who wants the boat moving from A to B (especially when travel to/from those places is expensive), can't do it without crew, is inflexible about dates and itinerary, maybe ought to be contributing something to the crew's costs - e.g covering the food and/or travel costs.

Someone in such a position probably wouldn't get an offer to crew from me if they were also expecting me to pay their boat's running costs, too, unless it was some place or voyage that was particularly appealing to me, it was a friend, or I was helping someone worse off than me out of a pickle.

 

[frans]

........"pleasure vessel" .......a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; .......
..........the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion;
.............

So, you are commercial if you are using your boat for the amusement of people who are not friends or family.
I know a lot of people bend this rule.
But you need to be very careful touting your vessel to the public at large.....

Crew recruitement
So, formally in the UK you're not a pleasure craft when you have a crew recruited by open sources. So all crewing sites like Crewbay and even the 'Crewing opportunities' of YBW lead to illegal sailing?

Contributions
It's clear that the line is drawn at direct expenses, support for equipment specially ment for the crew is not allowed.
Some questions are posted whether or not fuel or marina fee's can be included. You have to be aware of the fact that, at least in my case, sailing solo differs from sailing with a crew that considers a trip as a holiday:
- crews want to go sight-seeing in harbours, while I prefer anchorages;
- with a crew you have a set schedule to meet, so you're forced to motoring during calms where solo you would't mind a delay.
So: more marina fees, more diesel.

long term sailing
Most of the informal solutions suggested, work well among friends and on short term cruising for max a week. One of the first questions most candidates come up with is: 'what does it costs?' They want a figure, I understand. They commit for a longer period, up to a month, so they want to have an idea what they are up to. That's why I give an estimate, not too low to be on the safe side. An estimate, not a fixed fee.

Some background
To put things in the right perspective:
I'm a pensioner, to say, I quit with the survival race as an independent designer that wore me out in 25 years.
I sold my house and everything I couldn't take with me and bought this 44ft expedition yacht to start a second boyhood.
I lead a sober live, all what's left goes into the boat.
The basic idea was to bring people to places only reached by sea, for climbing, kayaking, diving, you name it. The boat would be a kind of floating basecamp. I help them to get there, they show me extraordinary places I wouldn't visit without them.
I don't want to do this on a commercial basis. That's another league. I sketch a trip and people can join with related destinations and activities. If they would pay commercial fee's, they can have demands and guarantees, it would attract a different kind of people. I would be running a travel agency, which I don't want.

The Azores trip is a kind of prep, a vingeroefening, for future journeys, up north, deep south.