Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake etc?

[Romeo]

My vote goes for the drascombe. I cannot imagine that you will ever be able to capsize one, the sails are of a size that the children can enjoy handling the sails, and the children can also be set to work rowing them, which will cut down on fuel consumption on windless days!! ~A more stable platform that the bermudan dinghies mentioned on the thread and more space for sailing than the 18' boats with cabins mentioned elsewhere. As long as you look after a second hand one, you won't lose money on it if you choose to sell after a year.

 

[aitchw]

Nick, I've avoided getting involved is this one because so much depends on the character of all the family members but here goes anyway.

If you all starting from scratch be very aware that you can totally put off any one of the family by getting things terribly wrong on the water in the early days. A scary experience early on can be disastrous for the long term plan. Please, don't put yourself in the position of having 4 total novices in any sailing dinghy at the same time. It's hard enough when you are learning to look after yourself let alone you + 3 others two of whom are very young. Keeping a dinghy balanced with 4 on board is not easy and there is little room to move even on a Wayfarer with that many bodies.

There is no one way to set about this but, FWIW, this is what I would do.

Do your RYA level 1 as a family. Have a good laugh together making silly mistakes in a safe and controlled environment where there is nothing to panic or be frightened about.

Buy a low cost, large dinghy for a little money. Tai_Lam suggested an Albacore as a possible and he's right. You can buy one for a few hundred pounds (£300-£500) and you will get a lot of boat for your money but there are others.

Sail two up as much as you can, taking turns with Joanne at the helm, lots of short trips with one of the kids at a time until you feel confident about what you are doing. Only then go out with the four of you and plan in advance how you will handle people postioning when tacking etc.

Whilst doing this go on and do your Levels 2 and 3, again together if it's possible.

After a season of having fun you should know if your idea for a cruiser is likely to suit you all and you will know how to make a sailboat go where you want.

Keep or sell the dinghy and go find a suitable cruiser.

Most important of all, don't let sailing become a fraut and anxious experience for any of you and have fun.

Good luck,

Howard

 

[fireball]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

[ QUOTE ]
Tai_Lam suggested an Albacore as a possible and he's right

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes - you can get a lot of albacore for your money, but they are not the most stable of boats, quite heavy and tend to fill with water after a capsise. Not the sort of boat I would start a family sailing in....

I would go along with the advise about doing an RYA course - although a Level 2 for the adults would be more appropriate - hopefully then keeping up the learning and go to level 3 fairly quickly.

As for boats, it really does depend what sort of sailing you want to do - if your looking for a "beach boat" then a cheaper GRP or plastic boat could be best, your not going to worry so much about scratching the gelcoat. For stability you really want a hard chined boat, Wayfarer/GP14/Laser2000/LaserStratos. Those with rounded hulls will be less stable downwind - Albacore/Firefly/Laser3000/Buzz

Personally, I would purchase a secondhand Laser 2000 (£4-5000) and join in with the 2kplayers and open meetings - loads of 2k owners have started this way...

The 2k is a very stable boat - I can stand on the bow (and I'm 12 stone!) and it doesn't capsise! As already mentioned, it is easy to reef, sail singlehanded and light enough to be retrieved short handed. I would add that as your children get the hang of sailing (probably quicker than you!) they could take the boat out by themselves (in the right conditions!).

It is possible to add a trapeze - the fitting is in the (proctor) mast as standard (the older masts (holt) don't have this). The one issue is the total inversion in the event of a whoops - just add a few milk cartoons to the top of the mast to prevent this .....

With the spinnaker as well the boat can be a straight people carrier or a (reasonably) fast racing dinghy ... Oh - and it has two drums for storing the beer!!

Have a look at www.laser2000.org.uk for details.

Disclosure - I am the Laser 2000 Webmaster ... !

 

[apollo]

Nick

Would recommend this crowd as a good local place to learn, Caroline and I went along and had a great time.

http://www.hoac.net/sailing1.htm

We are thinking along same lines, Flotilla trip booked for the Summer Hols.

All the best

Mike

 

[kds]

The Wayfarer does have a lot going for it. They are remarkably forgiving of beginner sailors, although they can be capsized. I used a wide variety of boats over 30 years of instructing school children to sail. If going for a short sail, with instant rescue facilities - it does not really matter what you sail, the family will be safe. But all of them might not enjoy the capsize experience. Good training is a prerequisite.
However - if you intend to be at all self-reliant, then your boat choice is very limited. I learned the hard way and I ended up taking kids cruising on coastal and estuary cruises in wayfarers. We did a lot of miles and much of it without safety boats.
1/ Do get a suit of smaller sails and use them for starters - we used 2nd. hand Firefly sails - but it is no good if they are kn*****d as the last thing you need in the main is a big belly when the wind gets up.
2/Yes you can roll the main up around the boom (see RYA training manual)to reef it, but this is far easier on land than on water. Practice it.
3/ Wayfarers are grossly underated for their performance. Their length and shape means thay can be a fast boat and as the kids get better, they will hanker for more performance. We fitted trapeze wires - excellent for training and great fun for beginners.
3/ the post which mentioned keeping warm was 100% right. Young boys in particular get very cold, very quickly. You need to spend money on kit - but get it at jumbles etc. for the kids as they grow out of it while you watch !
I hope you get as much out of it as I did. And I am sure the grey hair will suit you.
Ken

 

[aitchw]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

I don't want to get into the argument about characteristics of specific boats but would suggest your assertion that Albs are heavy is nonsense. They are lighter (240lbs) than the 2K and half the weight of a Wayfarer. I accept your points about filling etc but that is true of almost all non open transom boats including Wayfarers and I know which I would rather right after a capsize. There are no modern dinghies with any kind of ballast but an an early Alb with steel c/plate is a remarkably stable beast but at the expense of additional weight.

I learned to sail in an Albacore and have one to this day. It is the favoured boat at many Canadian community sailing clubs for teaching and family picnic sailing.

As always with these discussions so much is unknown to us and having no idea of what might be a viable budget makes a huge difference to the selection of one boat over another. I can't afford to spend £3K on a cruiser let alone a short term dinghy acquisition and if funds are very limited there are few that would cope with 4 people with any comfort.

If money is no object then there are lots of possibilities.

I'm glad we agree about the RYA courses but again I do not know where they are starting from in ability and I'm not aware that you can do Level 2 without satisfying the instructor that you are at level 1 already.

Apologies, the Alb is not lighter, it's about the same (within a few pounds) but it is faster according to PY. 1066 for the Alb and 1089 for the 2K. Pretty unfair really but if folk don't send in the returns how are the RYA to know.

 

[beancounter]

just to add to some comments already made:

too many novices in the boat at the same time may not be good - we scared the pants off our son when we took him out in our Mirror (just after our first sailing training), and 14 years later he still regards dinghies as the spawn of Satan.

We've owned both a Wayfarer and a laser 2000, and can heartily recommend either. The Wayfarer is big, roomy, stable, yet capable of a good turn of speed. However, it can be b****y heavy to haul up the slipway.

The laser 2000 is lighter,stable, easy to sail, fairly forgiving, and has the benefit of the asymmetric spinnaker for those "Yee-hah" moments. I belive that those built post 2001 will support a trapeze arrangement from the mast (ours didn't, much to the chagrin of my daughter). OTOH, they would be a bit cosy 4 up.

Good luck with the sailing - you won't regret it!

John

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

[ QUOTE ]
The Wayfarer is big, roomy, stable, yet capable of a good turn of speed. However, it can be b****y heavy to haul up the slipway.

[/ QUOTE ]

to make the learning experience a positive one, a good deal of forethought about ease of use and safety will pay dividends. our club had a big wayfarer fleet and they solved the weight problem by using an electric winch to get them up the slip and 3-wheel trollies (not just a trailer with a jockey wheel) to move them around on the flat. that way the weight wasn't an issue and didn't put people off.

 

[fireball]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

I believe the all up sailing weight (minus crew!) for an Alb is ~130kg ... the 2k is 100kg ... that would make the Alb 30% heavier then.
I too have sailed albacores - although not as much as you... they are great boats - superb for punching through waves and going upwind.
Downwind in a blow they (did) have a tendancy to trip over their centreboards - resulting in a swim!
Dad had an old ablacore and father-in-law had an older one (600) both were wooden - hence the heavy comment... Dad sold his and got a Laser 2000, Father-in-law sold his and bought a yacht!

The one issue with the 2k is that it has a smaller internal volume compared to the others and is best suited to 2-3 people in a breeze.

 

[aitchw]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

Sorry, according to Laser the 2k hull weight is 100kg, the hull weight for an Alb is 109kgs. If I have misunderstood the Laser specs. my apologies, I am honestly not trying find fault.

The tripping over c/b is a problem when gybing. I tend to keep only a fraction of board down. Getting into a death roll down wind is a perennial problem in most dinghies but I always had more problems with that in Ents.

I sail regularly against a 2K at my club and how I'm expected to live with it when the spinnie goes up I don't know but upwind, as you say, she more than holds her own.

It's amazing how many people have fond memories of Albs.

For a 50 year old design they certainly do well and still are out there in numbers, the older boats being relegated to what my Canadian friends call 'cottage' boats. The new ones are very nice and the class now has 2 FRP builders and a wood builder is on the cards. Amazingly the wooden boats from the late 70s/early 80's are still the benchmark and continue to win at National and International level against their FRP counterparts. Mine, however, just predates them and I replaced my much loved wooden one with a grp one for maintenance reasons.

 

[Wiggo]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

So this is the compromise between a dutch steel aft cabin cruiser and Joanne's wish for something swwopy, sexy and Italian? You'll never get to Paris in it!

 

[kds]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

[ QUOTE ]
.

For a 50 year old design they certainly do well

[/ QUOTE ]

You just can't beat Uffa Fox designs and Fairey Marine build.
Ken /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[aitchw]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

So, so true!

 

[Nick2]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

Thanks to everyone here for really helpful replies.

Now trying to find time to go through them properly

Thank you again

Nick

 

[tcm]

Re: Sensible sailing boat/dinghy for family to learn to sail on lake e

well, there's no need for sarcasm!