Selling a boat - acknowledged defect - double reduction / contract cancellation ? Is this fair / legal

[Clash]

Rather convenient however as the surveyor is, my friend understands, a mate of the former buyer.

What's wrong with this? This forum is littered with examples of poor surveying work and sub-standard surveyors. Why shouldn't a buyer ask his mate to survey a boat for him? I know I would if I had such a friend I could trust.

 

[Refueler]

Deal was subject to satisfactory survey. It wasn't satisfactory.

Seems you have a different English Language ... is says clearly Seller and Buyer agreed a defect deduction and subsequent contract said if OTHER found ...
That sequence is a mistake and should never have been agreed before contract.

 

[Refueler]

What's wrong with this? This forum is littered with examples of poor surveying work and sub-standard surveyors. Why shouldn't a buyer ask his mate to survey a boat for him? I know I would if I had such a friend I could trust.

Absolutely ... and I know for a fact after inspecting boats myself after so-called Professional Association Surveyors how bad some can be. There's one in particular who's name is well known - I wouldn't give him a bath toy to survey !

 

[Refueler]

But we have only one side of the story. If it was, for sake of argument, an issue with teak decks, the recognised “defect” may have been a small area of teak requiring repair. On survey it transpired that a much larger area needs repair, or perhaps total replacement, in the professional view of the surveyor.
Hypothetically the seller may not agree with the surveyor that a bigger repair / replacement is needed and consider it the same “defect”. The buyer and his surveyor may legitimately consider this not the same “defect” but a much bigger one.
Also, the OP refers to broker costs. Other than the fact that there should normally be none for a non-sale, what has the broker recommended the seller does? With a broker involved, they normally hold the deposit.

Agree ... but if buyer and seller have agreed a cost defect deduction and then buyer has a survey which disagrees with that ... the contract he signed after the defect agreement really is not over-riding the initial agreement ... that's buyers problem.

As you say - we only have one side of the matter and it really is a novel and needs reading a number of times to put each point in place and gauge what is and what some seem to think it says.

To me - unless a discussion over a pint can resolve - its a walk-away matter.

Broker ? Nothing to pay - that's sellers problem.

 

[Flynnbarr]

I wonder if it’s the same friend that fell off a slipway a few years back

 

[ari]

Seems you have a different English Language ... is says clearly Seller and Buyer agreed a defect deduction and subsequent contract said if OTHER found ...
That sequence is a mistake and should never have been agreed before contract.

No it doesn't, it says A standard style sale contract was then signed by both parties.

But whatever, pick any other fault on the survey and reject it for that reason, the point still stands. The sale was subject to satisfactory survey. It wasn't satisfactory.

To use an example, you go and test drive a car, it's got a vibration, salesman says 'it's just the wheels needing balancing' and you say 'yeah, that sounds about right, probably what it is'. Salesman knocks £50 off so you can take it to Kwikfit and get the wheels balanced. You decide to get the car inspected by an mechanic anyway, just to be sure and he tells you 'it's not wheel balancing, the entire front suspension is shot, going to cost £5,000 to put right and take two months'. Salesman says 'we've already agreed a £50 reduction for the vibration'. Are you really going to shrug and say 'fair enough'?

 

[ylop]

Seems you have a different English Language ... is says clearly Seller and Buyer agreed a defect deduction and subsequent contract said if OTHER found ...
That sequence is a mistake and should never have been agreed before contract.

It seems you are both arguing over a contract you haven’t actually seen! However I’m slightly confused what sequence refueller thinks should have been used here. No point engaging a surveyor, paying for lifts etc if the seller would never agree to a lower price. If you don’t want to be in this position as a seller - either make sure the boat is priced so there are a line of people waiting to buy the boat, or make sure there are no material defects to be used in negotiations!

 

[DavidJ]

No point engaging a surveyor, paying for lifts etc if the seller would never agree to a lower price.

Ahh!
Problem being that you don’t really know if the seller would never agree to a lower price at the end no matter what he says during the process.
In my recent (pleasant) selling experience buyers don’t come along in twos so you go through a process and part of the buyer “game” could be at the very end to make a lower offer which you could try and bluff out but risk loosing him.
You never know the “right” answer.
With (last) winter coming I gave him his 2%
I notice my (23 yr old) boat back on the market again, after a year, for 5% less so I’m content that I haven’t been exploited too much.

 

[Tranona]

No it doesn't, it says A standard style sale contract was then signed by both parties.

But whatever, pick any other fault on the survey and reject it for that reason, the point still stands. The sale was subject to satisfactory survey. It wasn't satisfactory.

To use an example, you go and test drive a car, it's got a vibration, salesman says 'it's just the wheels needing balancing' and you say 'yeah, that sounds about right, probably what it is'. Salesman knocks £50 off so you can take it to Kwikfit and get the wheels balanced. You decide to get the car inspected by an mechanic anyway, just to be sure and he tells you 'it's not wheel balancing, the entire front suspension is shot, going to cost £5,000 to put right and take two months'. Salesman says 'we've already agreed a £50 reduction for the vibration'. Are you really going to shrug and say 'fair enough'?

Good example. If I read this situation correctly (based on the OPs question about repairing the teak deck) the original agreement and price was based on localised refurbishment - the OP dismissed the need for a complete job as "nonsense". So the buyer thinks he can do the job at the level of price discount agreed. Surveyor comes along and disagrees and advises that the deck is far worse than that. Buyer would be a unwise to ignore that.

 

[Refueler]

It seems you are both arguing over a contract you haven’t actually seen! However I’m slightly confused what sequence refueller thinks should have been used here. No point engaging a surveyor, paying for lifts etc if the seller would never agree to a lower price. If you don’t want to be in this position as a seller - either make sure the boat is priced so there are a line of people waiting to buy the boat, or make sure there are no material defects to be used in negotiations!

The only information we have is original first post ... which goes into detail of the sequence of events.

I followed that and commented - THEN mentioned what I would have expected to be a better sequence. But Seller / Buyer apparently ACCORDING to OP's first post had NOT done.

I really wonder sometimes if people READ the posts .. I know I sometimes scroll down and miss later posts - or with some post badly worded - I can get it wrong ... but OP's first post is sequencial and detailed.

What is strange and I wonder if a small bit of info is missing ... >

Buyer - Seller agree a defect exists. Buyer says he's experienced with boats. Buyer - Seller agree reduction on price based on the defect ...

Then they agree a contract and a Surveyor attends for Buyer ... The Contract according to OP is :

"A standard style sale contract was then signed by both parties. This provided the buyer the right to withdraw for an undisclosed and significant defect being discovered at survey."

mmmmm .... little bit too open to interpretation ... I would expect many Sellers to latch onto the 'undisclosed' wording .. as he did 'inform' about defect and agreed reduction.
-----------------------------

My suggestion to anyone else reading this ... DON'T agree price reductions BEFORE survey. Of course discuss defects and have general acceptance that survey will determine extent of defect - THEN buyer - seller discuss reduction allowance ...

I do not understand why some are not understanding my point ... its so ******* simple ... forget all the legalese and implied ... OP's post is there for all to read.

 

[DavidJ]

My suggestion to anyone else reading this ... DON'T agree price reductions BEFORE survey.

OK
Example of my sale a year ago
Advertised for 100k someone comes along and says I’ll give you 97,500.
I wouldn’t and didn’t say let’s wait until the survey.
I’ve got a bite!

 

[Refueler]

Guys ... sorry - all this cars with vibration ... defect this ... survey that .... is not what OP's post says.

Just to show how mis-directed 'so-called' comparisons are :

I recently bought two vehicles. Opel Zafira RL for my Gardener ... when driving it - there was a fault - which dealer said was old fuel !! ... car was excellent and I managed to get price down based on my belief the engine was a bit smoky - but because of age OK. Took car to my guy at service and he found previous owner had cut out the DPF and Cat ... causing the engine to be overfueled due sensors faulty feedback. I contacted dealer and he basically said - Caveat Emptor ... not part of the 3 month G'tee. We reset the chip and car's fine .. bit smoky on start when cold ... but fine.

I bought Opel Movano truck with HIAB ... smokes quite bad on start up ... brakes had a bit of a 'squeak' ... front steering joint slack .. dealer agreed to sort ... I went back to pick up truck and all checked out good ...., as it was an import - it needed registration and I agreed sale - SUBJECT to passing Technical Import and Registration ... Technical failed on brakes and smoke. Called dealer and agreed to have my service check it out and we would discuss compensation ... I really wanted the truck as it fitted perfectly my intentions - so was expecting a 50-50 deal.
My pals service checked it out - we had to redo the steering repair dealer had done as he fitted it wrong .. which damaged the parts. brakes were sorted .. etc. Bill was about 800 euros ... dealer ? Still waiting the 400 .... which I don't think will ever come.

So hows the comparison ?? There is NONE !

 

[Refueler]

OK
Example of my sale a year ago
Advertised for 100k someone comes along and says I’ll give you 97,500.
I wouldn’t and didn’t say let’s wait until the survey.
I’ve got a bite!

Sorry - maybe I wasn't clear ... in your case if you are happy with offer - of course - done deal. Buyer has taken responsibility on him and fine ... same as I do for my purchases.

My "DON'T agree price reductions BEFORE survey." was based on a boat in discussion regarding defects / sale etc ... the reduction being the amount to cover the defect ...

 

[jfm]

Indeed not worth a legal fight - so was it the deck ?

Unlikely in view of the real condition of the real deck. Just another 'Surveyor destroyed sale'. Rather convenient however as the surveyor is, my friend understands, a mate of the former buyer.

A key thing is the buyer was not present at the survey and thus did not understand the Spirit of the survey and verbal advice of the surveyor (BTW his mate). Or perhaps this was deliberate.

In reality an older would be buyer suffering buyer's remorse (or his wife in his ear !) needing a valid excuse to withdraw from a contract he should not have ever entered into in the first place. Indeed honestly would be preferred to admit this.

Some lessons here for my friend ...

1 Do not allow a survey without the buyer present so he sees, as the seller did, the actual Spirit of the survey.

2 When signing up to a completely un-enforceable sale contract recognise you do this on basis this is just another hurdle in the overall sale process. In reality the sale contract can never be enforced so is entirely pointless. Just sign to appease the broker / buyer.

3 Do not ever entertain a later, way below agreed, retort re the agreed price - i.e the reneging buyer can never buy the boat.

There is an established scam here - buyer offers and sellers accepts, surveyor appears, trashes the boat, offer is withdrawn - then several weeks later buyer returns with a lower offer. This indeed might well work (or might not of course ! )

Anyway now for some (minor) woodwork for my friend !!!

Hmmm. I don't agree point 2. The contract is enforceable, but because I have not read it, nor seen the evidence about the disclosure and price reduction agreed for the defect, I can't say how it would be enforced.

Must say I disagree nearly all the posts after your post #37.

There is a lot of missing the point going on. Suppose OP is correct and the non-buyer is wrong but still disputing. What then? Your attention should be focussed not on the survey part of the contract but on the fact the deposit is held by a stakeholder who has legal duties to both sides. How are you going to get stakeholder to take your side in a dispute when there's nothing in it for him to take a side? Folks don't focus on this part - I am laser focussed on it in the boat contracts I do, so that the parties never get into this situation. If you choose to use the awful "standard contracts" that brokers copy/paste from their last deal then I'm afraid you have made your bed and if things don't go well you must lie in it. Therefore in this cases I'm saying you're gnna have to get your expenses back and let the non-buyer take the remainder of the deposit back.

 

[dunedin]

Just out of interest, what were the “expenses” incurred by the seller that he/she was hoping to recover from the buyer?
The only example given originally was broker fees, which would not normally be incurred for a non sale.
Survey costs and any lift presumably covered directly by buyer.

 

[volvopaul]

I really take no please in reading posts like this , it just shows how dishonest this industry is because it’s so unregulated .

Strangely enough I carried out an engine inspection last week with Nick surveying, for this deal to be so unprofessionally handled by the broker , hence the buyer pulled out .

 

[jfm]

I don't see any suggestions that the broker in this case is dishonest.

I'm 100% against regulation for yacht brokers btw.

 

[Refueler]

I really take no please in reading posts like this , it just shows how dishonest this industry is because it’s so unregulated .

Strangely enough I carried out an engine inspection last week with Nick surveying, for this deal to be so unprofessionally handled by the broker , hence the buyer pulled out .

Sad but not uncommon as I'm sure not first time you see ...

 

[Refueler]

I don't see any suggestions that the broker in this case is dishonest.

I'm 100% against regulation for yacht brokers btw.

Well known Brokers - south coast ....

I knew of a boat that I then was told was with XX broker ....

Drove to brokers (I will use the non capital B ... ) and asked about the boat ... expecting reasonable interest. Guy just literally did not raise his eyes from his playing on phone .. and just said - its on the board somewhere over there ...
I found it on the board after scrolling through most of his boats ... and asked if he had any other 'sheets' on it - there was only a basic one sheet pinned to board. His reply was - 'maybe .. ' ... I asked again - can I have a copy ?

The attitude and failure was enough for me to just say - Be happy with your phone ... and walk out the door. I wished I could have informed the seller ... but I didn't have his contacts ...

 

[dunedin]

I really take no please in reading posts like this , it just shows how dishonest this industry is because it’s so unregulated .

Strangely enough I carried out an engine inspection last week with Nick surveying, for this deal to be so unprofessionally handled by the broker , hence the buyer pulled out .

In what way does this suggest any “dishonest” behaviour?

We don’t know both sides of the story. Instead it sounds like a simple difference of opinion between the seller and the professional surveyor as to the condition of the teak decking. And as many have found to their substantial costs, repairs to teak decks on older boats can be very expensive.