Seems to be legal but I feel cheated

fireball said:
Sorry. Can't fully agree with you here. At the time of demo you would've been told that the charts are sold seperately - and it normally states on the box if charts are included or not.

The op was demod a piece of kit - and there is a clear misinderstanding of what was going to be included with the demod kit - so IMHO it is worth asking the question - especially as genoa sheets have been removed too. It may be they're just removed for storage.

As for charts being personal - I'm not sure I can agree there either - ok, they reflect choice of cruising ground - but that's it - a few waypoints doesn't make it persoanl.
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Charts are personal kit.

In this case there is no box because it's second hand.

Instead of a box there is an inventory.............and they are not on the inventory.

The op can say to the owner there was a chart in the plotter when you showed me the plotter was a functioning unit (there has to be to do so)

And the owner can say yes, here it is, or no it's mine and not on the inventory.


As an aside some brokers are advising owners keep the chips separate because they now sometimes get nicked by viewers !!!
 
Mrs FG said:
In my opinion, the vendor should have left the chip, as otherwise the GPS is unusable
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I'm sure unusability is not usually the case. In fact without the chip you are left with a GPS, not a chart plotter. It will give you co-ordinates that you can plot on a chart, and probably waypoints and rountes too. Just like my ancient (pair of) Garmin GPS.

I have been on several charters/flotillas in which the chart plotter was built-in as a GPS but the chip was an optional extra for the trip. There was a charge, just as there would be for other extras, and we elected not to pay it.

Mike.
 
If you bought a second hand car and the vendor demonstrated the CD player (with a CD) would you expect to get the CD used when collecting the car?

I'd be disappointed in not getting it (the Nav chip - not the CD) but it may have been 5 yrs out of date and not worth having anyway...

Piddy
 
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I think you've all picked up the point that as the chip was not on the inventory, it seems it was LEGALLY, not included in the sale.

My point was more that this is a poor show/not cricket etc and I have to accept that it is MY FAULT for not knowing (or being street-wise enough) that he was going to remove the thing.

As for the sheets, I am gently surprised at how adamant everyone is that these should have been left. The replacements will be £50 odd but I admit to not inspecting the ones on board when I was looking to buy, so cannot tell if they were even there then! It just didn't occur to me to look as I was more interested in the quality of the main structure and the general value-for-money the boat represented. To buy or not to buy. The chip would not have been a 'deal-breaker' but it would have been nice to know.

Just as it didn't occur to me to ask specifically "will you be leaving the chip" when I was discussing what sort the Raymarine took (we have Standard Horizon on our old boat, and as I won't be needing it again, the chip will go with it.)

I feel that as I very rarely buy boats, only the third one in a lifetime, my level of expertise is very low and it saddened me to think that I had been naive and I do feel 'taken advantage of' (not for the first time!)

But if a lesson can be learned by others then maybe that's what the Forum is about?
 
I guess it depends on a lot of things we don't know about. What the asking price was and what was offered, for example.

If all you have to worry about is a chart card and genoa sheets then you're doing well.

Sheets should be on board, card is tricky. If they had another boat and wanted to take it with them they should have said. If you nailed them down on the price they might have thought they would take it and put it in EBay. There were things on the inventory that we didn't get, the previous owner explained they were a present and had taken them off. We could have create a fuss, but life is too short. If you kick up a fuss you might get a chart card for the smallest area where the boat is, is it worth getting upset about, you'll spend more on an engine service :) and much more on mooring!
 
When I bought my current boat, I had kind of expected the tender to be included because it featured in various pictures. I can't remember if it was on the inventory or not. But a few days before I collected the boat it came up in an email exchange that the seller was keeping it. I remember feeling mildly irritated in a sort of "cross-with-myself-for-not-checking" sort of a way. But not that bothered because the boat was a great buy - more than five years on, I still think so.

But what I had absolutely not expected was that the seller would replace all of the batteries in the engine and domestic banks with new ones (£1k) and brim the tanks with 800 litres of red.

So, I ended up a pretty happy fellow.
 
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All new equipment sold in Sweden under EU rules (I believe) must (for instance) clearly state that batteries (AA) etc are not included with the device. There is always an options list that describes the equipment like 12 v cig lighter cables must be purchased seperately.

In the instruction book also, there is usually a statement that not all devices contain the same thing and the options list must be examined.

It is therefore clear that when buying new from a licenced retailer or agent it is a legal duty to spell out in detail what is included or not in the sale. Whether this is carried over to used equipment is (I would think) a moral issue rather than legal.

However, it is the buyers word that the equipment was demonstrated with an accessory that was later removed. Therefore a bit of guile is needed to get the seller to admit in writing that he did in fact use the missing item when demonstrating the thing. On the lines of "the chart chip you used to demonstrate the plotter cannot be found, could it be in a place I haven't looked?" If he writes back that he took it with him ... you have got him. Emails are legal docs these days.
 
When we sold our previous boat, there were loads of things which were going to go with the boat, but not itemised on an inventry. Tools etc.
However, the buyers took months to come up with the money, and the longer they took, goodwill was reduced, and so was the amount of extra gear.
 
moral of story being.

make sure you know what your buying , if its not on the inventory and you want something ,make it part of the offer and you will know where you stand , my last purchase had a very loose inventory and I assumed anything not listed would go , was pleasantly surprised to find chart chip had been left which I hadnt expected , it had a chart table but no charts left as I expected , other Items I expected had been removed , all part of the fun :)
 
How do you know the owner did not leave the card ?
Its not unheard off for a broker to pocket them and sell em off, for a bit of a bonus....
When I had my boat on brokerage, I removed the card as it is such an easy thing to pinch, especially when brokers just hand you the keys to look around someones pride and joy.
Sorry- not a downer on on brokers :)
 
jonic said:
Ok. lets look at it another way for a moment.

I went to the chandler today and bought a £1000 chart plotter. The guy demoed it in the shop.

When I got home the £200 chart he used for the demo was not in the plotter.

I checked the spec and it was clearly not included in the written spec as being included. However as he demoed it in the shop with a chart in it I believe it should be mine for free. I never asked him for it and i don't see how you can demo the unit without one but that's beside the point.

I rung them up and they said they don't include charts as they are personal to the user- it depends on the cruising ground and other personal choices so the chart chips are sold separately

Much like a chart table needs charts to be a chart table, the chart table doesn't automatically come with charts either when you buy a boat.

Undeterred I pointed out that if I was buying a house, they would have to leave a £1.50 light bulb (totally unrelated to a boat sale and purchase contract, a chart plotter and a £200 quid chart - but who cares) and I would be going to the small claims court.


Come on guys.....


Best you can do is ask him if it was a mistakenly removed or if it wasn't included. If it's not on the inventory the op didn't buy it.

The sheets however are not personal and should be included.
Click to expand...

Plus one
 
NPMR said:
I think you've all picked up the point that as the chip was not on the inventory, it seems it was LEGALLY, not included in the sale.
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No, I'm saying more than that. I don't think anybody's seriously arguing that it wasn't legal for him to take the chart card, the question being discussed is whether it was morally ok.

My position is that it was morally ok. He's done nothing out of the ordinary by taking his charts with him, as plenty of people's experiences related here show. You were being naive by assuming they would be left, and not confirming exactly what you were buying. Sorry, but them's the facts.

Pete
 
The chart card disables the plotter and he was shown the boat with the plotter working. The genoa sheets are outrageous, the card would have me fuming as well and I would demand it's return or the small claims court; the small claims court would take a dim view of the seller disabling a key navigation tool.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
The small claims court would take a dim view of the seller disabling a key navigation tool.
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I disagree. Electronics are aids to navigation and should never be relied upon solely - they are not therefore 'key' to navigation. Now, had the vendor removed the tiller....!!!!!

I think some people here are being amazingly unreasonable. In fact, I can't believe that this thread has reached 6 pages...
 
When I bought my boat I took it for granted there would not be a chip in the plotter or charts in the nav table.
I was right.
Unreasonable to expect either I think.
I would have kicked up if the genoa sheets disappeared though!
 
The big difference here which some people are glossing over is that unlike charts, chips aren't that interchangeable, so unless the seller already has a new boat or knows what he's buying, the plotter is quite possibly disabled out of sheer pettiness.

If it had been demonstrated working to me, that's how I'd expect it to be and I would first ask politely then become extremely snotty until it was replaced !
 
When I decided to sell my boat I removed everything I did not want to sell before putting it on the market. Then the purchaser knew exactly what he was buying. I did not sell the chip as I use in on my current boat.

I would not have expected the chip to come with the boat unless agreed, but I would have clarified the situation before making an offer. I would say that the removal of the sheets is a breach of contract unless they were specifically excluded It would be a bit like removal of the sail or mast. If you don't get satisfaction name and shame.
 
I think you have to be sure to agree an exact inventory when buying or selling.
My boat had various sheets, guys, warps etc, some were included some were not, all carefully listed in the inventory.
I think when it comes to softwart charts, that should have been on the inventory if included, some plotters have a very cheap chart covering a small area, or a very expensive chart covering more.

In the scheme of things though, it is not such a big thing, although these things add up.
IS there diesel in the tank?

Even when buying or selling a sailing dinghy verbally, I think it pays to list everything that's included. You see a lot of people listing a lot of stuff on eBay the week after selling their boat.
 
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