Secondary anchor question - serious.

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Loathe to answer this as I know it can go on a bit, but having looked at previous threads I am still unsure.

I carry a 25kg Delta and 80m of 9.5mm chain. I have been completely happy with this arrangment.

This year we will be spending a lot more time at anchor on the west coast of Scotland, so I guess it's time to buy an additional anchor. Ideally I do not want it permanently bow mounted, so I was considering a Fortress or a Fisherman that can be stored in our lazarette.

Any advice (excluding changing the Delta!) would be much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[craigsmith]

Get a better primary and relegate the Delta to auxiliary status. If you are spending time in the northern grassy areas up there, like the Hebrides, you'll quickly learn why there was need to come up with something better.
www.rocna.com/main.php?section=real&chapter=endorse&page=2

Seriously, you want (need?) a spare anchor that can replace the primary if you lose it. On this basis it should be similar to the primary, not a Danforth etc. I would consider three such anchors to be minimal for regions like the west coast of Scotland.

As for a stern/auxiliary anchor, Fortress is great - just understand its restrictions and don't subject it to anything other than linear pulls or too much abuse.

You don't want a Fisherman, that's just silly talk

 

[vyv_cox]

I have no argument with Craig's post. For a substitute anchor for your bower, in case of loss for any of several reasons, you need something at least as good as what you have. A 'new generation' anchor taking the place of your Delta would be sensible, and is in fact exactly what I did myself. The Delta can then be stowed below, hopefully never to be used. A Fortress holds very well with an unchanging pull and makes a great kedge (again, this is what I have), but would not be my choice as a substitute for the Delta.

 

[Quandary]

The most popular anchor you see up here is the CQR follwed by the Delta, then the Bruce. I currently use a Delta and a Manson Supreme, my experience so far is that the Delta sets as well as the others in kelp. I have experienced problems in the past setting the CQR in weedy places like Canna or Craighouse but rarely with ae Bruce. The roll bar anchors are really silly prices in the UK and they are awkward to handle and stow away. The anchor I believe to be the best for these waters based on feedback from other skippers, the Spade, is even sillier. We are being seriously ripped off by these products, how can it cost more than three times as much to make a Rocna than a Delta. If you are prepared to be ripped off go all the way and buy a Spade
Or resist the rip off, buy a bigger Delta!!!!
(25 kg. will be plenty big enough) I would be happy with that on up to 40' so you just have to decide if you need a spare. in forty odd years I have only had two anchors out once.

 

[oldvarnish]

The problem with this debate is that few of us ever test our anchors to the extreme and it is only in the ultimate test that you find out whether the extra couple of hundred quid is worth it for a roll bar anchor, or a spade.
My guess, and it is a guess, is that it IS worth it. If you've got a yacht that's worth several tens of thousands of pounds, isn't it good sense to spend a few quid more and equip it with an anchor which has been subject to modern design, testing and examination?

To say ' my CQR, Danforth etc... has never let me down' does not change the argument. You have simply never been in a situation where it 'could' have let you down. You can't say that it never will.

I've got a Spade, soon to be joined by a Rocna, and have slept soundly in many parts of the world, although I'm only too well aware that one day they 'might' let me down; but I judge it to be less likely than with some anchors of older designs.

Spend the extra - it's far less money than we waste on many pointless add-ons.

 

[LadyInBed]

The most popular anchor you see up here is the CQR followed by the Delta, then the Bruce.

I take it that will be Roberts version of the Bruce that is popular.

 

[Quandary]

The OP is coming to Scotland equipped with a 25 kg. Delta and a load of good chain, he is better equipped than many of the boats that cruise up here regularly. Our west coast is blessed with a great choice of sheltered tide free anchorages with not a great distance between many of them, in fact there is very little offshore sailing until you get west of the Hebrides. The differences may be deeper anchorages sometimes with steeply sloping bottoms close to steep too shores and gusty catabatic winds, you rarely have to anchor where you are exposed to waves or swell. Shallower anchorages are likely to have kelp making it more difficult to pick a spot, but kelp is thickest where the shelter is good. If you get the anchor dug in it will hold you, with the Ops relatively heavy gear he will need to give it a good tug to make sure it is taken. He is unlikely to need a kedge because there is usually plenty of room to swing but he may decide that he needs a spare anchor, I suspect that he will never use it but then you never use your liferaft. I have always carried two anchors but the second is designed to be dumped in or recoverd quickly in an emergency and has only about 10m of chain then rope, I really only use it to stem a tide or as a lunch hook. My answer to the original question is that you are fine unless you are one of the hard driving, anchor anywhere type of sailor, they usually have a fisherman.
My difficulty anchoring to date has usually been with kelp or with trying to get an anchor to bite when pulling it laterally along a steep sloping bottom, Tobermory has a heavily used designated anchoring area which is too deep until you are about 20m. from the shore. I had trouble setting a roll bar there last year in quite benign weather and have since concluded that the roll bar was encouraging it to roll down the steep slope.
You do not see many boats up here using Fortress or Danforth types as primary anchors but this may be because the Glasgow made drop forged CQR was for decades what eveyone swore by. We knew how and where it was made and we trusted it, you can't beat Scottish engineering. Its a real shame that an entrepreneur could not be encouraged to use that engineering skill combined with modern design here rather than bringing bits of galv. steel half way round the world wrapped in bubble wrap to protect the galvanising.

 

[Tom Price]

Have carried a Fisherman for years and found no better holding in kelp-over-rock in Brittany and the Channel Islands.

 

[NormanS]

Get a better primary and relegate the Delta to auxiliary status. If you are spending time in the northern grassy areas up there, like the Hebrides, you'll quickly learn why there was need to come up with something better.
www.rocna.com/main.php?section=real&chapter=endorse&page=2

Seriously, you want (need?) a spare anchor that can replace the primary if you lose it. On this basis it should be similar to the primary, not a Danforth etc. I would consider three such anchors to be minimal for regions like the west coast of Scotland.

As for a stern/auxiliary anchor, Fortress is great - just understand its restrictions and don't subject it to anything other than linear pulls or too much abuse.

You don't want a Fisherman, that's just silly talk

I've sailed most of the West Coast of Scotland for the past 50 years, (yes I started young), and I've yet to find "grassy areas" in the Hebrides. Some of the sandy bottoms on the west side of the Outer Hebrides have a small amount of "grass", but never enough to be a problem. Kelp can be a problem, but with the aid of a fishfinder, or good old fashioned Seafarer echosounder, can generally be avoided. Perhaps craigsmith can give us information as to where "grass" is a problem in the Hebrides?

I cannot speak for the Clyde, but most anchorages are either mud or sand or a mixture of the two. There is never a need to anchor where swell would be a problem, and many, though not all anchorages are sheltered from all directions.

On my 36ft ketch, my main anchor is a 20kg Bruce, on 65m of 10mm chain. I also carry a 20kg fisherman, and a 20kg Danforth. Either of these is used with 6m of 12mm chain and then nylon rope. They are only used very occasionally. You do want something which can be laid out by dinghy if required.

Not sure what size the OP's boat is, but if he has found his present anchor adequate, I would suggest he carry at least one other, or better still two, of a similar weight. There's no point in advocating any particular type here, as one would be immediately shot down in flames by one who has an axe to grind.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Not sure what size the OP's boat is, but if he has found his present anchor adequate, I would suggest he carry at least one other, or better still two, of a similar weight. There's no point in advocating any particular type here, as one would be immediately shot down in flames by one who has an axe to grind.

Our boat is 44ft, 18,000kg including wine stores.

We really are not the sort of sailors who insist on anchoring everywhere. We avoid anything rolly or exposed and if the forecast is very windy we hide somewhere else. Sounds wimpy, but we cruise for fun and I sleep better in a noisy harbour or marina than a peaceful anchorage with uncertain holding.

Our Delta has been fine in the sandy and muddy places we have used it. I am not going to change it without very good reason. It fits the bow roller and windlass perfectly and there is no point changing it for something that supposedly approaches the job the same way. It is also a lot heavier than my spine likes to handle so it would be best left where it is.

What I am seeking is advice at to what to carry in addition. Thanks to everyone who has replied, and all the p.m. from those that wanted to understandedly avoid the public arguments.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Recommend A Danforth or Fortress

I have until I bought my own boat used a Danforth exclusively as a kedge anchor on both the West Coast of Scotland and the Firth of Clyde. This has been on many different types of yacht as well.

As a kedge I have used it in strong currents when fore and aft anchoring in narrow Lochs, as a second bower in big winds mud / sand and again in big winds in rock as a second bower. I have also used it in tandem with the CQR. It has always held. I have also used it to hold off on a lee shore in moderate wind with gravel and sandy mix type bottom which the CQR failed to set in.

I reckon it is a good anchor and would recommend it based on value for money, or the Fortress, being a modern design of similar style.

For 5 years I sailed in a , 41' LOA 12 ton yacht and also carried a Fisherman's anchor. I used it once on slab rock to get some sort of a hook hold.

Sadly my boat came with 2 x CQRs, a 60 lb bower and 40 lb kedge; why I will never understand. Both are hated by my spine and ancient windlass!

 

[stevepick]

Our boat is 44ft, 18,000kg including wine stores.

I like the wine stores bit, I am a fan of travelling with a cellar, hopefully our paths will cross this summer and we can compare tasting notes

We really are not the sort of sailors who insist on anchoring everywhere. We avoid anything rolly or exposed and if the forecast is very windy we hide somewhere else. Sounds wimpy, but we cruise for fun and I sleep better in a noisy harbour or marina than a peaceful anchorage with uncertain holding.

Our Delta has been fine in the sandy and muddy places we have used it. I am not going to change it without very good reason. I

I keep my awb in Oban, and have spent the last four seasons regularly using my rocna - we anchor more than moor/marina. The bias in nights at anchor is because :

1. Most of the best places are still anchorages, the holding is usually very good, sheltered and often scenically breathtaking. Natural harbours are not unusual up here.

2. There are just not that many moorings and marina berths up here, and if you select them over anchoring then you will miss the best this coast has to offer .

I carry a fortress kedge on a few meters of chain and a good length of anchorplait. It lives in a holdall in the bottom of the cockpit locker. Except for an annual check, it never sees the light of day. I am struggling slightly to think of tidal influenced anchorages. There is almost always swinging room ( the anchorages are not that busy even in "high" season). When we have been subject to a wind change the rocna has reset. If the delta will do the same then your probably going to use your kedge as much as I do.

Please do consider using your anchor more, I am often happier on my kit than a mooring buoy. A highlight of last summer was sitting at midnight on midsummers day watching an otter swim around our boat at anchor in the outer hebrides.

Steve

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Fortress is the answer!

SolentBoy,

Pardon my intrusion, but I think that a Fortress will offer you an unbeatable combination of high holding power and easy to manage weight.

I would recommend the well battle-tested 22 lb Fortress model FX-37 for your 44' boat. For years the FX-37 has been a top performer in every anchor test, it is used by the US Coast Guard on their 40' range of patrol boats, and we even have one here in our company lobby that held a 42' Silverton during Hurricane Andrew's 140 mph winds that lasted several hours.

Even with a small measure of chain, the FX-37 will still be light enough to heave overboard when needed.

Your spine will thank you!

Be safe,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[craigsmith]

Have carried a Fisherman for years and found no better holding in kelp-over-rock in Brittany and the Channel Islands.

You've tried every anchor out there then have you?

Our Delta has been fine in the sandy and muddy places we have used it. I am not going to change it without very good reason. It fits the bow roller and windlass perfectly and there is no point changing it for something that supposedly approaches the job the same way. It is also a lot heavier than my spine likes to handle so it would be best left where it is.

If your Delta is fine, and you don't want to change it, then why the query for another type? Your query makes no sense on this basis. You need another anchor, just as a spare if for no other reason. If you don't want to get a superior new generation type, perhaps for cost reasons, then the obvious answer is: get another Delta, be happy, and go sailing.

If you're looking specifically for an auxiliary anchor to be used in only straight line pulls, as a stern anchor or whatever, and something light-weight and easy to stow, then Fortress is the obvious answer to that. Simple.

 

[Quandary]

Hot news, charm school refuses re fund.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

If you're looking specifically for an auxiliary anchor to be used in only straight line pulls, as a stern anchor or whatever, and something light-weight and easy to stow, then Fortress is the obvious answer to that. Simple.

Amazing! I think that we can get this on the local news tonight if we hurry:

"Rocna Guy Who Has Trashed Fortress in Boating Forums Around the World For Years Actually Recommends One!"

And Craig, old buddy, if you continue with that straight pull nonsense, then fair warning that I will keep posting the results of that independent test where they pulled a Fortress straight, at 90°, and at 180°....to the maximum in each case.......and the damn thing still would not come out.

Or I might start posting testimonials from customers whose Fortress anchors held their boats during hurricanes with horrific wind shifts, and then you will REALLY sound foolish with those comments.

Have a nice day,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[NormanS]

Hot news, charm school refuses re fund.

Yes, and I'm still waiting for information from "the expert" about areas of grass in the Hebrides.

 

[craigsmith]

"Rocna Guy Who Has Trashed Fortress in Boating Forums Around the World For Years Actually Recommends One!"

When have I ever trashed Fortress? I routinely recommend them, for appropriate applications. Don't listen to the voices eh.

And Craig, old buddy, if you continue with that straight pull nonsense, then fair warning that I will keep posting the results of that independent test where they pulled a Fortress straight, at 90°, and at 180°....to the maximum in each case.......and the damn thing still would not come out.

"That independent test", the Puget Sound 1995 one, where they did a single veer test and had to abandon further testing because they destroyed the anchor?

 

[Brian@Fortress]

When have I ever trashed Fortress? I routinely recommend them, for appropriate applications. Don't listen to the voices eh.

No pal, I read with my eyes.

"That independent test", the Puget Sound 1995 one, where they did a single veer test and had to abandon further testing because they destroyed the anchor?

No again, silly boy. From the summary page of this test:

"4 Anchor initially set at 4100 lbs, then 90 degree at 4248 lbs, then 4001 lbs at 180 degree. Shank bent during process so veer tests with this anchor not repeated. Underwater view of anchor shows it completely buried in sand initially, with about 4" of fluke out during veering tests."

So Craig-o, you have a 24 lb anchor holding over 4,000 lbs in all 3 directional pulls and the shank bent during the veering phase of the test.

The next closest anchor was a steel model that weighed 43 lbs and held a max of 3110 lbs in the straight pull (bent fluke), 3105 lbs at 90° and 2,200 lbs at 180°. Does that impress you.......or are your "Rocna Goggles" wrapped around your eyes and head too tightly?

Better stop right here buddy.

Brian
Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[craigsmith]

Better stop right here buddy.

Don't like having your recent strategies de-spun?

So long as you continue to advertise destroyed anchors as some kind of badge of honor; refer to dubious "experts" with all the grand credibility of recommending CQRs with a straight face; refer to the sole invalid amateur test you could find to attack your competitor(s); and inappropriately drop names like the USCG, with the disingenuous implication that a coast guard or navy's requirements of anchors are anything like close to that of a cruising boat anchoring long term or being left unattended - then you'll find interested people are going to pull you up on it.

"4 Anchor initially set at 4100 lbs, then 90 degree at 4248 lbs, then 4001 lbs at 180 degree. Shank bent during process so veer tests with this anchor not repeated. Underwater view of anchor shows it completely buried in sand initially, with about 4" of fluke out during veering tests."

So Craig-o, you have a 24 lb anchor holding over 4,000 lbs in all 3 directional pulls and the shank bent during the veering phase of the test.

Right, the Sailing Foundation 1995 Puget Sound test. Where they ruined the Fortress on the first veer test and had to quit. In fact there are two mentions of this, the 90 degree and the 180 degree test - did they actually destroy two anchors? It seems so from their photos, although their write-up suggests they bent shanks twice although the one photo shows a fluke.

I can't believe Fortress use this as some badge of pride. I suppose they have to have some PR way of trying to spin it as a positive result. Do you seriously believe that it's a good idea for anchor designers to increase the anchor's holding power by thinning sections, upping the size of flimsy unreinforced geometry, and/or using aluminium, so massively weakening the product - and total structural failure in response to veering loads be damned?

Here are those pics from the Sailing Foundation, off the US Sailing website:

Even in straight line pulls, in many of the tests that Fortress themselves like to surmise in their marketing, Fortresses are routinely destroyed. I think the levels involved are acceptable for limited usage - pulls restricted to a narrow angle of variation - particularly in softer grounds, and they're certainly a high performing anchor in this context. But to use them for any other purpose, just as with any Danforth, is just silly.