Second thoughts re monohulls

[Tranona]

Rather than defend your existing vessel and Bavarias generally I suggest you go and LOOK at it.... You may then understand my comments and even agree with me!

I have had a look at it - and it is not a big versus small issue. The 42 is built in the same way as the smaller boats. About the only criticism that is acceptable is the amount of open space - but again this is a feature of all modern boats of this style.

You do however, have to get your facts right on Coding. EVERY charter and sailing school boat has to be coded. Details from the MCA. It costs somewhere between £15-20k on a 38ft production boat. Coding requirements are very thorough and have to be supervised by an approved surveyor. My boat meets the Greek charter coding requirements - it cost me £11k. I am currently upgrading it to MCA which is more stringent in some areas perhaps reflecting the more challenging sailing environment here. The point to bear in mind is that most of the cost is in equipment rather than any structural modifications.

As to full Lloyds certification. This is a rarity these days because of the cost. Remember it comes from an age where boats were mostly individually built and there was no recognised standards. There would be an advantage of having your (very expensive) boat independently supervised. I used to work for a builder of custom boats, so am familiar with the process - and also why independent inspection by either Lloyds or the owner's surveyor was so important.

However, the world has changed. Most boats are now properly engineered and built. Mass production allows consistent build quality. The RCD (for all its faults) lays down a set of standards. The end result is my experience. There was nothing wrong with my Bavaria on delivery. Apart from the Rutgerson hatches, no warranty work. 7 years of chartering on average 25 weeks a year and still in excellent condition. Just like my Ford cars. And quite unlike the horror stories you hear from people who have custom and semi-custom boats! (and expensive cars).

If these boats are so bad (in your eyes) why are thousands sold each year? And why do the criticisms come from people who do not own them? And why do you think that so many owners are satisfied? Are we all blind or stupid?

By all means have your opinions - but they are just that. The empirical evidence from the real world is against you!

 

[fireball]

I believe yours, like mine is real wood ... well - plywood at least!

I honestly cannot tell you why loads of folks buy MFI interiors ... chipboard with a plastic laminate.
Perhaps it is because they want NEW, but cannot afford the "quality" of real wood and there is little choice now between the prodution AWBs.

Coding - either greek or MCA isn't interested in the quality of the fitout - only that the boat is kitted out to be safe for public use - they could not care two hoots if the boat interior fell appart - as long as it didn't cause issues to the safety of the occupants and vessel. The interior, electrical and winch sizes (if they are an issue) come down to maintenance. So it could be acceptable to make the non-structural interior out of cardboard (fireproofed of course!) ...

The proof of the pudding will be how long the interiors last and how scruffy they look.

If you think about it - BenJenBav are sorting out their future boat sales - if they make a boat that looks tired quickly then they will get replaced ...
Also - these boats are being largely built for the mass charter market - and the turnover of boats is quite high - 3 years old is OLD these days, everyone wants new .... so build down to a price, then you can afford to charter for 3 years and effectively give it away afterwards.

 

[Tranona]

Not so sure the new style interiors will fall apart. Whilst I prefer the woody style of our era boats, that might be because my ideal boat would be all wood! However, there is a sense of honesty about the newer boats, using man made materials rather than pretending to be wood! The bland style does reflect contemporary tastes in housing and my concern is that it will look dated quickly. These things tend to go in cycles. Look at the early mass produced GRP boats where wood was kept to a minimum - then styles changed and wood interiors became the norm to hide the fact that it was a plastic boat. Moodys and the Swedes were the masters at this style. However look at the latest HRs Najads and German Moodys and you will see the same trends as in the AWBs!

Don't think it is true that charter boats have short lives. The norm is 6 seasons and this is likely to be extended as hard times constrain the demand for new boats. Experience is also showing that boats can be economic to operate for longer.

Best thing about all this is that the second hand buyer gets a wider range of choices!

 

[boatmike]

Are we all blind or stupid?

That is far too philosophical a question for me at this time of day, but ensuring the boat is within a very limited code is not the same as an MCA safety cert as applied to commercial vessels carrying passengers which is where I carefully explained, I was coming from. But I am glad you concede at last that I am entitled to express an opinion. That's an improvement in attitude at least. Now lets just agree that you are well satisfied with your Bav and I would not be seen dead in one and leave it at that shall we?

 

[fireball]

However, there is a sense of honesty about the newer boats, using man made materials rather than pretending to be wood!

I'd expect a better finish with their precision cut materials than they seem to achieve. I am flabergasted at the quality of the finish - and I mean the fastening of the trim and visual joining of different sections. It's one thing being 'honest' and another using the cheapest possible method to throw a boat together - which is how I've seen the show boats.
6 year charter market - not for the 'corporate mass charter' boats it doesn't seem to be...
and the second hand buyer get a wider range of choices? No - I'm dreading having to change the boat, as I know we'll want something around 10 years old and I can't see the current bunch of production boats being in a fit state ....

 

[Tranona]

Are we all blind or stupid?

That is far too philosophical a question for me at this time of day, but ensuring the boat is within a very limited code is not the same as an MCA safety cert as applied to commercial vessels carrying passengers which is where I carefully explained, I was coming from. But I am glad you concede at last that I am entitled to express an opinion. That's an improvement in attitude at least. Now lets just agree that you are well satisfied with your Bav and I would not be seen dead in one and leave it at that shall we?

Still not sure of why you are applying that MCA safety certificate for passenger carrying craft to boats that do not carry 12 passengers but normally have 6 berths and are used by individuals. Irrelevant. I could "carefully" point out that a hire car is no good because it is not built to the same standard as bus, or a 6 seat light aircraft used by a club compared with a small commercial executive jet! But then I could be seen as stupid.

It is clear that you prefer to live in the past from the boats that you admire. Nothing wrong in that. At any one point in time there are people like that. In the 1960s would not be seen dead in a plastic boat. In the 1970s would not be seen dead in a boat with a fin keel, Little later on what is all this about spade rudders and then saildrives and so on. The world moves on but not everybody moves with it nor wants to.

 

[Tranona]

No - I'm dreading having to change the boat, as I know we'll want something around 10 years old and I can't see the current bunch of production boats being in a fit state ....

Fortunately (?) for me this is probably my last boat. Had the opportunity to buy new a couple of years ago but decided not to because the existing is fine for our needs. When we have finished our "big project" in 3-4 years time I will sell it and go back to my 1963 "proper" wooden boat. This will see me out easily.

 

[fireball]

I could "carefully" point out that a hire car is no good because it is not built to the same standard as bus

But - your hire car (in the UK at least) must go through safety checks annually - and again, they (DVLA) don't give two hoots about the shabbyness of the interior - hence you can get good and **** cars in the hire market as well as privately owned.

Very few people critisise the SAFETY of the AWBs - they are built to a market they serve well. What BM and to a certain extent, myself are critising is the standard of build and BM's view on the size/type of the kit. Doesn't make it not safe ... just not very good (in our eyes).

 

[jonjo]

Very few people critisise the SAFETY of the AWBs

Unless your name is boatmike, in which case you question the structural integrity of the bulkhead to hull bonding, doubt the strength of "undersized" standard rigging and then round off by stating the boat should be condemned and would be if the MCA carried out the same cursory boatshow inspection

 

[fireball]

Well - he actually said the bulkhead was tacked at intervals .... he didn't specifically say it wasn't put in proper like ....
'undersized rigging' just means it won't stand the F12 - but then neither will the occupants!

I'll condem the boat too - but only on finish quality (or lack of!)

 

[Sailfree]

I'd expect a better finish with their precision cut materials than they seem to achieve. I am flabergasted at the quality of the finish - and I mean the fastening of the trim and visual joining of different sections. It's one thing being 'honest' and another using the cheapest possible method to throw a boat together - which is how I've seen the show boats.
6 year charter market - not for the 'corporate mass charter' boats it doesn't seem to be...
and the second hand buyer get a wider range of choices? No - I'm dreading having to change the boat, as I know we'll want something around 10 years old and I can't see the current bunch of production boats being in a fit state ....

You should have visited our boat in Cherbourg. Its been 5 yrs on charter and I don't think wearing too bad.

I agree though about precision cut. The gaps in the floor lockers on the hinge side are unecessarily large and i was surprised when I visited the factory 6yr ago how much final hand trimming was going on.

 

[Tranona]

I have not been in the latest 42 (or is it 43) but if it is the same one as last year I would agree. I used to work for MFI and the interior fittings particularly the "cocktail cabinet" would have been in the damaged items section!

I have been in the new 35 which is the nearest equivalent to my 37 and I only stayed 2 minutes. Apes the old Benny 361 without the good finish! However, the 34 which I assume is now obsolete might be seen as the last remnant of Bavaria's good years in style and finish.

No doubt the market will decide if they have got it wrong.

 

[jonjo]

However, the 34 which I assume is now obsolete might be seen as the last remnant of Bavaria's good years in style and finish.

Oh not the "I got the last of the good uns" old chestnut.

Every new boat owner sails away comforted by the fact that the sales manager whispered in his ear and said "you got the last of the solid old model in stock, the new cost cutter model doesn't compare".

Its a never ending delusion in boat ownership that has been going on for 30 years. No doubt there are Westerly Centaur owners around today who shake their heads in sympathy as they pass one of the new flimsy 1980 Griffon models.

 

[fireball]

Ah - yes, I should've done shouldn't I
but tbh - the private charter market is different to the corporate one - you will take care of your boat far better than the mass owned ones - and so will your charterers as you usually get a different sort of charterer ....

The precision cut isn't good on our Bav37 and the plates behind some of the deck fittings are a little insubstantial - but I can resolve most of these ... but shouldn't it have come out of the factory right to start with?!

 

[fireball]

To an extent he has a point ...

I wouldn't now look at a newer Bav than ours. Purely because I believe they started cutting too many corners. I've seen the newer Bav36 - same hull as ours, different deck mould and interior ... and you can see the difference in internal materials.

 

[Tranona]

Oh not the "I got the last of the good uns" old chestnut.

QUOTE]

No, I don't think so. For obvious reasons I have followed Bavaria since I first got "converted" and bought one. As with any product range there has to be change and development, but it often happens that the "improvements" are accompanied by negative changes. I thought the next generation after mine were on balance a significant improvement overall and were still distinctly different from the competition. In fact we got very close to buying a new 33 but in the end could not justify the substantial additional cost. Decision also swayed by having new sails on the 37 which removed what was the only real negative, and the overall good condition of our existing boat.

However, I agree with most of the other criticisms of the latest range. By trying to ape the other AWB builders and not doing it very well - or more importantly not as well the others, they have lost their edge. But the issues are to do with style and finish, not with engineering and structural integrity.