Second thoughts re monohulls

[boatmike]

As a multihull freak I have contemplated selling my dear old Prout 37 and buying a boat that is less beamy cos SWMBO is unlikely to tolerate months at sea but does like canals and the idea of the med. Also I am getting older and winching in that enormous genoa is getting a strain. So went to the boat show with an open mind.
Looked at Southerlies..... OK I suppose but I only liked the 35 with proper wheelhouse seating that you can see out of. Why do all the rest have the galley up and saloon down? And the beds are so tiny and you have to climb up and down all the time... Lifting keel good but generally claustrophobic... Hmmm thought I.... I am used to much more space than this......
Then looked at the Cromarty 36. A great little boat for geriatric old farts like me, a proper sea boat, but will fit in canals..... Still tiny though...
Hmmm.... How about a motor boat? Looked at the Antaris Nine-Fifty. Super Boat! But even with just a single 160HP engine it would cost me over 100 quid in diesel to get to Cherbourg and back and I wouldn't want to ride out a gale in one.... so no not really!
Then SWMBO said... Ohh look! a 42 ft boat for 160,000 quid.... Bavaria of course. Went on to have a look and yes indeed it really was truly awful. The interior looks like a cheap MFI flat pack job. The electrical installation was a joke... (you are not supposed to look at that of course!) and the winches are about the size I would expect on a 25 footer! In fact all the deck gear and rigging was so lightweight it is obvious that there is nothing of quality there.... Looked at various other boats too but totally underwhelmed by anything under 40ft
So I have decided. Peregrine stays! 5ft 6in double bed. No rolling at anchor. 3 ft draught.
Big galley, comfy seats where I can see out. Enormous cockpit.... I shall just have to practice getting a 5 metre wide boat into a 5.2 metre wide lock!
It's good to see what everyone else puts up with though. Makes you appreciate what you have....

 

[AlumCat]

I've got a 37 ft. monohull, & I get fed up with living half the time over at an angle.
So i've decided to change to a multi-hull, a catamaran.
I take it that you still prefer your cat. are there any downsides to owning one ?
What should I look out for, I want a performance cruiser in the 40 ft. plus range.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Well I've had three monos and a Prout cat - changing back from the cat to a mono.

cat advantages:
1/ space
2/ ride both sailing and at anchor
3/ maybe 15% faster on average all points of sail inc motor.
4/ light and airy inside
5/ stable working platform at sea
cat disadvantages
1/ beam
2/ mooring cost
3/ sailing performance. The Prout is really a motor sailer to windward in any sort of sea
4/ Difficult to single hand into port ( but easy to do so at sea)
5/ No real fun to helm - hydraulic steering

If I were to go off liveaboard or long term cruising I wouldnt go in anything but a cat. For day sailing round the UK / weekending and the odd holiday, I wouldnt go back to one.

You sail for the fun of handling a boat under sail so you buy a sailing boat thats fun to handle, not a Prout. If you need a caravan for SWMBO, then she will absolutely love the cat - mine did. You may have noticed that the OP's comments leaned heavily towards accommodation.

 

[boatmike]

Wow thats a big question.
It's easy to give you a polarised answer based on the usual (I have got one so it's the best at everything) But it's not like that really. I keep saying on here "there is no such thing as a perfect boat" and there isn't. What do you want it for? How long do you spend on board? How many of "you" are there? Where do you want to go? Will you be a liveaboard or are you a weekend sailor? I think I can say having owned a 56 ft wooden gaffer, a steel motorsailor, a Nelson motor cruiser, several AWB's and now a Prout Snowgoose that I am not prejudiced but you need to say a bit more about who you are and what you want the boat for before anyone could answer that!

 

[boatmike]

I can come to terms with most of what Jason says but it's still a generalisation. If you liveaboard for any length of time space on board is very important, but it's a lifestyle thing. I just love the ability to anchor in 3 ft of water and get a great nights sleep, but it's good to sail comfortably upright at 8-9 knots and leave the boat on autopilot while you go below to make coffee. It's not so good when beating up the Solent against a SW wind grinding a fooking great genoa on one side to the other! I can in fact beat to windward as well as bilge keelers, but having had high performance cruisers in the past the fun of cutting fast up to windward with the rails under pissing off every other AWB is actually something I miss.... For livaboard cruising they are just unbeatable, but for fun sailing, or in my case pottering up canals... well... not ideal! But on balance I have decided to stay put with the cat. It's all a matter of what you want the boat for as I said...

 

[oldsaltoz]

What to look for

I've got a 37 ft. monohull, & I get fed up with living half the time over at an angle.
So i've decided to change to a multi-hull, a catamaran.
I take it that you still prefer your cat. are there any downsides to owning one ?
What should I look out for, I want a performance cruiser in the 40 ft. plus range.

Basics:

Galley up, at least 4 hatches per hull plus 2 or 3 over the saloon, top half only front opening windows in the saloon are very good, Wide access between cockpit and saloon, narrow walkways outside saloon.

Good bridge deck clearance of around 0.7 m minimum, small keels to take to ground, wheel steering, rotating steering seat, large cover over cockpit area, separate walkway behind cockpit with a handrail aft so you can mount your B-B-Q and fishing rod holders, Long seats down both sides of the cockpit, very handy as day beds, fans in all cabins.

Minimum 3 large hatches on the foredeck, one for gas and one for anchor chain and mooring lines, one for fenders and flipper. electric anchor winch with wired remote control, fixed anchor bridal.

Saloon layout, galley aft part of saloon to one side, Navigation and radios aft on the other side to galley, the rest is all a 'U' shape lounge with a good size fold out fixed table, two small refrigerators, one for drinks and anything else in the other one.

Look for engines with access from the deck only, a bulkhead fore and aft so no smell of engine or fuel will ever get inside, this also ensures good access for maintenance. Twin fuel tanks with transfer lines between them, all filters wall mounted for easy access, Smart charger for battery systems, solar panels above cockpit canopy.

Twin drinking water tanks, pressurised, hot water system, salt water deck hose, You might also like a reverse cycle air conditioner and a generator for use when not in a marina.

A tender, preferably an inflatable with hard shell, storage is not a problem on 40+ footer.

Oh and if you want to make a small fortune, start out with a big one, don't worry you will end up with a small one.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[boatmike]

Basics:

Galley up, at least 4 hatches per hull plus 2 or 3 over the saloon, top half only front opening windows in the saloon are very good, Wide access between cockpit and saloon, narrow walkways outside saloon.

Good bridge deck clearance of around 0.7 m minimum, small keels to take to ground, wheel steering, rotating steering seat, large cover over cockpit area, separate walkway behind cockpit with a handrail aft so you can mount your B-B-Q and fishing rod holders, Long seats down both sides of the cockpit, very handy as day beds, fans in all cabins.

Minimum 3 large hatches on the foredeck, one for gas and one for anchor chain and mooring lines, one for fenders and flipper. electric anchor winch with wired remote control, fixed anchor bridal.

Saloon layout, galley aft part of saloon to one side, Navigation and radios aft on the other side to galley, the rest is all a 'U' shape lounge with a good size fold out fixed table, two small refrigerators, one for drinks and anything else in the other one.

Look for engines with access from the deck only, a bulkhead fore and aft so no smell of engine or fuel will ever get inside, this also ensures good access for maintenance. Twin fuel tanks with transfer lines between them, all filters wall mounted for easy access, Smart charger for battery systems, solar panels above cockpit canopy.

Twin drinking water tanks, pressurised, hot water system, salt water deck hose, You might also like a reverse cycle air conditioner and a generator for use when not in a marina.

A tender, preferably an inflatable with hard shell, storage is not a problem on 40+ footer.

Oh and if you want to make a small fortune, start out with a big one, don't worry you will end up with a small one.

Avagoodweekend......

Well there you are then. I think that's all totally arse but then what do I know??
p.s. its a bridle not a bridal. You DON'T want the latter.......

 

[BurnitBlue]

I have sailed a Prout for five or six years. The Med brought out the worst features of a cat. Poor windward ability with wide varying winds from zero to F8 in sudden blue sky squalls. Hobby horsing in the short steep seas with the outdrive in and out of the water. Frustrating rather than dangerous.

The open ocean brought out the best features of a catamaran especially down wind in the trades.

The Caribbean was a disappointment in a catamaran because the cross current between the islands almost always caused the easterly wind to be brought forward of the beam to fetch the next island. Same for a mono of course but high beam seas and a virtual headwind are the achilles heel of a catamaran.

The Bahamas were a sheer unmitigated delight.

I always envied yachts that were anchored on all chain. When I owned a cat it was taboo to carry the weight of chain in the bow area (where else can it go). I used rope rode which was a constant nagging worry near coral.

In the European canals a catamaran is fantastic. No draft problems, the square shape fit the lock walls better than a pointy monohull. The mast lay in on the centre line away from lock walls. The only problem I had was the lock keepers would sometimes only open one gate on their side because it required a long walk round the lock to get to the other gate. A mono could get in with one gate open. Also the down stream lock had run off water running across the gate making the need for fine judgement getting in.

I moved to a monohull shortly after a careless mistake where I lifted a hull coming out of the lee from Monsaratte to meet a high wind with full sail and hit the usual beam sea. I was probably OK but it shook me up a bit.

The chinese have a saying that "The tiger leaps once". That in a nutshell was MY problem with catamarans. In a monohull one can pile on sail until the yacht is overwhelmed with the gunnels underwater, then admit that was too near the limit so back off and reduce sail. In a catamaran, you cannot do that, or at least I never had the nerve to try. The tiger leaps once, and its all over.

Very few catamarans actually turn over or pitch pole, but the constant nagging worry knocked the edge off the fun after the Monsaratte incident.

But that was me. I am a worrier. Other cat sailors loved them.

 

[boatmike]

Interesting post BlueTwo. Your Bio says you have a folkboat. Surely you didn't go from a Prout to a FB????
I would also be interested to hear which Prout you had. I have always thought a cat needs to be a minimum of 40 ft to get the real advantages. My 37 is OK and does not hobbyhorse too much because she is so bloody heavy! In fact the 37 and bigger were wide hulled soft bilge designs that carried a livaboard load quite well ( I carry all chain incidentally) but they are not in fact as fast as smaller ones like the Event 34. Even the 33 CS Quest can sail faster than me downwind but is a lot livelier. The Quest 31 is like a rocking horse!! I think your analysis would apply very well to a quest but I would argue the 37 and upwards are not so prone to the downsides you mention. But of course at 5 metres beam and with locks 5.2 wide its a tight fit in canals!

 

[BurnitBlue]

The Quest 31 is like a rocking horse!! I think your analysis would apply very well to a quest but I would argue the 37 and upwards are not so prone to the downsides you mention. But of course at 5 metres beam and with locks 5.2 wide its a tight fit in canals!

Spot on. Good reading between the lines. I owned a Quest 31 bought new from Canvey Island. I also sailed on the larger Prouts because, as a group, we met in different harbours and could anchor together out of the way. We shared experiences and test sailed on each others cats.

Yes, I did go from a Prout to my first Folkboat. I took the Folkboat to the Mediterranean and cruised and lived aboard for a year until a 35 foot Hallberg Rassy moored next to me in Corfu. Big argument aboard the Rassy ending in a furious skipper putting a "For Sale" sign up in the rigging. I made an on the spot offer which was accepted. Two hours later (I kid you not) I heard a knock on my folkboat. It was two Swedes and they made me an offer to buy the folkboat there and then. My boat wore the Swedish ensign at the time.

I suspected some collusion between the Rassy owner and these two Swedes to cement purchase of the Rassy but no scam and both deals went through. I swapped boats without walking more than ten feet and it took half a day. I thought that somebody in heaven was looking down with a benevolent smile. Six month later I realised that the smile must have been a roaring gale of laughter because I hated that Rassy with enough passion to sail her back to Sweden as soon as possible with the intention of throwing the bits I had to replace through Volvo Pentas windows. Their factory on Hisingan had a high wire fence around what could only be described as a wide DMZ so I could never reach the windows but I bet the groundsman was puzzled by the green bits that littered the grass between the fence and the building.

I sold the Rassy in Sweden a few month later and bought another folkboat. (And incidentally a house from the hard earned profit of two wasted years fixing all the Volvo Penta probs)

Sorry for the long post. Strangely, I am presently in consultation with "Patrick Boyd Multihulls", and a lady from "Multihull world", because, despite the notes I made in my first post yesterday, I realised a month or two ago that I actually sailed further in the Quest 31 (three to my personal knowledge have circumnavigated) and more important gave me the gift of many really good friends in the Catamaran groups. There is a close bond between Catamaran sailors that is a priceless advantage over the mono cruisers world.

This time I am aiming for an elderly Snowgoose because its all I can afford. I have to pay cash being an expat.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I have always thought a cat needs to be a minimum of 40 ft to get the real advantages.

Yup, you are correct again. I knew a pretty famous German Catamaran circumnavigator called Wolfgang Hausner. He reckoned that any catamaran less than 35 feet was a deathtrap on the ocean. I think he had his tongue in cheek and was baiting me but he had good arguments to support his view. I remember a time when he arrived in Martinique after a transatlantic crossing in 20 days. The mono sailors were moaning about the horrendous conditions on the crossing with violent rolling. They asked him what it was like in his Catamaran. He replied that it was hard work because he used the time to repaint and varnish all the interior of his boat. Jaws dropped among the mono sailors who spent the whole crossing clinging to the handholds. He wrote a book about his experiences. Translated into English I think but a dangerous book for the undecided. It will seal your fate.

 

[jonjo]

Bavaria... The interior looks like a cheap MFI flat pack job.

You prefer wall-to-ceiling-to-wall sticky backed foam lining everywhere?

Anyhow the MFI city apartment look has been adopted by most of the large AWB manufacturers with the exception of American Hunter who still manage to deliver a nautical interior look.

The electrical installation was a joke... (you are not supposed to look at that of course!)

I have and am quite proud of the installation on my Bavaria, far better than the accumulated DIY lashups seen on most +15 year old boat. What in the electrical department triggered your displeasure?

and the winches are about the size I would expect on a 25 footer!

Silly boy. That is because modern boats are not cursed by IOR inspired rule cheating rig design. More than 50% of the drive comes from the mainsail, hence smaller genoa winches.

 

[Tranona]

You prefer wall-to-ceiling-to-wall sticky backed foam lining everywhere?

Anyhow the MFI city apartment look has been adopted by most of the large AWB manufacturers with the exception of American Hunter who still manage to deliver a nautical interior look.

I have and am quite proud of the installation on my Bavaria, far better than the accumulated DIY lashups seen on most +15 year old boat. What in the electrical department triggered your displeasure?

Silly boy. That is because modern boats are not cursed by IOR inspired rule cheating rig design. More than 50% of the drive comes from the mainsail, hence smaller genoa winches.

Agree with this. I don't like the MFI look either, but presumably the people with the reddies to buy these boats do as they don't have much choice. Can't understand the comment about the electrics - control panel is a bit naff, but you can't fault the integrity of the system. Comment about winches is typical of people who don't understand design and judge things by their one pre-conceptions of what is good! - If you are used to complaining about winching in oversized Prout genoas, you might get obsessed with winch size!

 

[boatmike]

You prefer wall-to-ceiling-to-wall sticky backed foam lining everywhere?

Anyhow the MFI city apartment look has been adopted by most of the large AWB manufacturers with the exception of American Hunter who still manage to deliver a nautical interior look.

I have and am quite proud of the installation on my Bavaria, far better than the accumulated DIY lashups seen on most +15 year old boat. What in the electrical department triggered your displeasure?

Silly boy. That is because modern boats are not cursed by IOR inspired rule cheating rig design. More than 50% of the drive comes from the mainsail, hence smaller genoa winches.

Well if you want detail I will give it.
The headlining on the 42-45ft (whatever it was) was a stretched piece of plastic that was not attached to anything and drummed like a banjo when you touched it. Anything carried on board that touched it would have easily ripped it and that would probably mean replacement of the lot. The drawers in the units were MDF. Literally. I suspect that most of the woodwork was. The boundary angles of the main bulkhead could be seen inside the toilet cupboard module. They were not even continuous....tacked at intervals! The wiring was not tinned. Main cables even were cheap PVC covered cable of very minimal size. The "ballroom" below decks was cavernous without a single handhold to stop you from being "launched" from one side to the other over the slippery floor. The winches were far too small (sorry but they just were) Standing rigging, spars, running rigging, in fact everything above decks was very minimalistic. If you want to compare go and look at the Swedish boats that of course are twice the price but built properly in most cases. You will find proper headlining. Veneered marine ply, not MDF. Decent rubber covered tinned cable (at least in some) Handholds where expected. Winches were adequate (for the same area of sail at least 2 sizes bigger) Spars that are far more the expected size, and standing and running rigging that has not been skimped with far heavier stainless wire used throughout.
Frankly I have spent my life in the industry and been involved in the design and build of many yachts, ships, ferries, commercial craft and warships. Admittedly my yacht building experience has largely been confined to vessels of over 60ft but I have also been sailing since I was a baby and now retired I have seen a lot. A cursory look at that boat left me in shock at how awe inspiringly awful it was.... If you like yours and it satisfies your needs than OK but don't call me a silly boy cos I ain't a bloody infant and I have been around the block. That boat my friend should be condemned, and if they ever tried to subject it to a lloyds certification or get an MCA safety certificate for it it would be.

 

[jonjo]

don't call me a silly boy cos I ain't a bloody infant and I have been around the block.

I know, that is why I used the term. You should know better and not indulge in such a MAB-esque tantrum. Shame really because I was learning a lot about the multihull pro & con debate.

So you have decided to stay with the Prout multi, fine, but a man with your background should be able to make such a personal decision without seeking reassurance through a fanciful public diatribe.

Many of your criticisms could be leveled at any AWB produced in the last 15 years.

I simply don't get your ceiling lining criticism, your drumming skin analogy is a perfect description of Marine Projects (Plymouth) e.g. Sigma (Moody?) manufacturing circa 1985. My Bavaria has ceiling panels.

And handholds... the last Swede I looked at on the second hand market (a Maxi 1050) had wobbly main handholds at the companionway, my Bavaria has solid ones still @ 5 years.

MDF everywhere!!! I know otherwise having retained the 15mm thick instrument cutout from a minor bulkhead.

Intermittent bulkhead tabbing!!! Again not true, since I have seen much full bonding on my Bavaria.

In 5 years my Bavaria has not been back for a single fix from new.

 

[Tranona]

That boat my friend should be condemned, and if they ever tried to subject it to a lloyds certification or get an MCA safety certificate for it it would be.

Suggest you go back to basics. the design has certification - used to be Germanischer Lloyds (as mine was) but not sure who they use now. The old Lloyds rules are now out of date and do not reflect modern practice. As to MCA certification - how do you think all those Bavarias and Jeanneaus in the Charter and Sailing School fleets operate legally?

The rig and deck gear is designed and made by exactly the same firms as the "Swedes" use (Selden,Harken, Rutgerson, Lewmar etc). Do you think they apply different standards to Bavaria? It is all lighter because the boat typically displaces 70% of a similar length "Swede". More lead (and heavy woodwork) equals more sail area equals stronger rig equals more weight - and so on - never mind the bigger engine.

It is a waste of time judging modern boats by design principles of the past. You have to judge them against themselves. You will then find that AWBs are not only very similar but are equally well built and durable in general. You will also find the latest "Swedes" particularly the smaller HRs and Najads are moving in the same direction.

As Jonjo says, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Sum total of significant replacements on my Bavaria in 7 years of chartering were new water tank, blown head gasket and new alternator on Volvo engine, leaking calorifier, 2 control boxes for the windlass and a new drum for the roller reefing. Plus new sails. Note how all the "failed" equipment except the calorifier and water tank is exactly the same as fitted to the "Swedes". Nothing structural has given any trouble and the boat looks great!

As i said earlier, I don't like the MFI style finish and I think they have lost the knack of being able to make a lower price boat look expensive, but then so have all the others. And if you look in the newer "Swedes" you will see exactly the same manufacturing techniques used, although with a litle more care - after all they are demanding a minimum 80% price premium.

 

[jonjo]

And if you look in the newer "Swedes" you will see exactly the same manufacturing techniques used, although with a litle more care

Indeed.

Last time I visited the Malo web site the news feature on the home page proudly announced a major investment in a CNC robot laser cutter. Six years earlier Bavaria was ridiculed on this forum for adopting the very same yacht manufacturing advance.

The desperation of the MAB Brigade knows no bounds.

I wonder if these same people jump out of their Range Rovers and BMWs in a supermakret car park, run across to some younger family man putting the shopping in his Skoda or Ford Mondeo and then publicly lambaste him for being stupid enough to buy such a lowly vehicle?

 

[matt1]

Here we go...I could have predicted another "Iv'e been round the block, sunny" lecture coming on from Boatmike

Personally I wouldn't want a Bavaria, however it really gets my goat about all the Bavaria bashing that goes on here ....its just boat snobbery. As for the comment about tinned copper cable...well, I spec'd that on my boat and frankly it was a waste of money and caused more problems than it was worth. I note that even Najad's don't have tinned copper cable, so c'mon lets be realistic here. A Bavaria is built to a price and does what it sets out to do. If you want a lot of boat for your money, and want new then buy one. If you place an emphasis on quality then for the same price, you will get something smallerfrom a premium brand or buy a second hand "quality" boat.

As Boatmike has told us, there is no such thing as a "perfect boat"

 

[boatmike]

Suggest you go back to basics. the design has certification - used to be Germanischer Lloyds (as mine was) but not sure who they use now. The old Lloyds rules are now out of date and do not reflect modern practice. As to MCA certification - how do you think all those Bavarias and Jeanneaus in the Charter and Sailing School fleets operate legally?

The rig and deck gear is designed and made by exactly the same firms as the "Swedes" use (Selden,Harken, Rutgerson, Lewmar etc). Do you think they apply different standards to Bavaria? It is all lighter because the boat typically displaces 70% of a similar length "Swede". More lead (and heavy woodwork) equals more sail area equals stronger rig equals more weight - and so on - never mind the bigger engine.

It is a waste of time judging modern boats by design principles of the past. You have to judge them against themselves. You will then find that AWBs are not only very similar but are equally well built and durable in general. You will also find the latest "Swedes" particularly the smaller HRs and Najads are moving in the same direction.

As Jonjo says, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Sum total of significant replacements on my Bavaria in 7 years of chartering were new water tank, blown head gasket and new alternator on Volvo engine, leaking calorifier, 2 control boxes for the windlass and a new drum for the roller reefing. Plus new sails. Note how all the "failed" equipment except the calorifier and water tank is exactly the same as fitted to the "Swedes". Nothing structural has given any trouble and the boat looks great!

As i said earlier, I don't like the MFI style finish and I think they have lost the knack of being able to make a lower price boat look expensive, but then so have all the others. And if you look in the newer "Swedes" you will see exactly the same manufacturing techniques used, although with a litle more care - after all they are demanding a minimum 80% price premium.

Now look... I didn't start this thread to specifically bash Bavaria, and my comments were aimed at the boats of over 42ft. I went on the smaller of the two but never made it on to the 55 that someone else has started a seperate thread on saying similar things perhaps a little more politely than me. You own a smaller one. OK I still dont like them but have to say that makes more sense. They don't have the stretched fabric suspended ceilings for a start.
But if you are going to nitpick, you obviously don't know the difference between a Lloyds or DNV certified vessel and a company that has had design approval (and possibly QA approved systems by those same companies) Design approval is a paperwork exercise not a build quality control standard. These boats are far from Lloyds approval standards and are not claimed to be any such thing. They are not alone in that in fact. Only a few of the very expensive boats at the show had Lloyds hull moulding certification in fact and as owners at this level don't seem to understand it's significance I can understand why they don't as Lloyds overseers cost a fortune to have permanently on site. My point was that many boats would have little problem meeting Lloyds standards (an example would be the Cromarty 36 built now in Sri-Lanka) Bavaria would not. Argue if you like but I have earned my living building boats and make no excuse for pointing that out when somebody makes patronising comments like "silly boy" indicating that I am fresh out of my pram.
As far as MCA are concerned the only legal requirement for a vessel to have a safety certificate is if they carry over 12 passengers commercially. Charter does not require MCA certs at all. There is a special code for large charter yachts carrying up to 12 passengers but no legal requirement by any country to comply as far as I am aware. Each country will have it's own standards and requirements but not insist on MCA approval. Again my point was not that ANY vessels at the show would pass MCA certs, but that the large Bavaria totally ignores the principles of safety on board. In particular the lack of handholds in a cavernous open interior. Again this does not apply to 36 ft and under boats and was specific to the larger vessels.. Rather than defend your existing vessel and Bavarias generally I suggest you go and LOOK at it.... You may then understand my comments and even agree with me!

 

[fireball]

I'm going to partially agree with BoatMike here...

We are going to the boatshow this year, but also had a look around the AWBs last september and I have to say that they were all MFI furniture - and I'm not knocking the design, but I have had wardrobes made from chipboard and they fall appart - and this is standing on a solid floor - We also have solid wood wardrobes - and they are absolutely fine after many more years than the chipboard equivalents. How do they expect the chipboard boats to last?

Further more - the finish of ALL of the production boats was appauling - there were gaps in the finish, clear signs of where the glue had been added, trim was not attached firmly and generally a lack of any attention to detail - and this was on the SHOW BOATS which personally I would make perfect (as far as possible anyway).

I rather suspect that when we look this year we're going to find the same.

We currently own a 1999 Bavaria and had a 1994 Jenneau - both have WOOD interior, ok - it's plywood, but it is strong and looks good. The finishes are reasonable but not up to the Rassy standard - but then they don't cost the Rassy prices.

I don't know about the electrics and winches - generally we didn't have a problem, but then we don't have new boats so the winches could have been replaced (certainly were on the Jen) - and the electrics looked and operated fine.

Oh - one last moan about the Bav .... which stupid pr1ck designed our boat with a heads water intake seacock 2" below the waterline .... it basically means that unless you're on starboard tack you can't flush whilst underway!!

Having looked at the new generation of production boats I don't think I could own a new one - I'd have to rip out the insides to rebuild properly!