Sea trials when buying a boat

[Chris R]

When selling a boat, I have no problem taking a prospective buyer out for a sail. I wouldn’t do it if they appeared and asked me straight out to take them out but I would be more than happy if repeat visits showed a reasonable degree of interest in the boat. However, that to my mind is not a “sea trial” which forms a later, formal part of the purchase process.
The sea trail proper isn’t for a buyer to decide if he likes the boat enough to buy: it’s purpose is to confirm the boat systems work properly at sea after someone has already committed to buy the boat. For preference, it should take place after the survey has revealed any faults which needed correction so the buyer can assess the efficacy of those repairs.
As to brokers wriggling about taking you out in a boat, it does ring alarm bells with me. I was once in the process of buying a boat, asked to be taken out in her and was refused because the broker “didn’t have insurance”. I got the boat surveyed and found a number of faults including with the gas system: I asked that either they be rectified or the price reduced. The seller refused, so in conjunction with the refusal to take me out in the boat, I walked away. It seemed to me that there was something dodgy with the boat and the sale process. That contrasted significantly with the other boats I’ve bought where brokers and sellers were happy to arrange access and short trips out as part of the sales effort.

That’s helpful thank you

 

[dunedin]

Yes thanks I know all that
what I was after was view on what’s accepted or legal practice

“Accepted practice” is only accepted if the punter decides to accept it.
I would not buy a second hand boat without some form of sea trial. On our first 2 boats it was an informal brief sail with the owner or broker (in the latter case, they knew the boat and had raced it previously). In the current case it was overseas, but I flew out a U.K. surveyor who did the sea trial with the broker.
Clearly if it is a sellers market, and lots of offers on a rare boat, then the seller may choose not to allow a sea trial. But if want to sell then they need to be prepared to be helpful or lose a sale.

 

[srm]

Yes thanks I know all that
what I was after was view on what’s accepted or legal practice

If this thread has shown anything, it is that there is not an "accepted or legal practice".

All but one of the boats that I have bought have been ashore at the time, so I never had a 'sea trial'. I did once take a potential buyer, along with wife and young son, out for an afternoon sail and they bought the boat. I always put a clause in my offers that all equipment would be in full working order at hand over. I also accept with older boats that I will want to replace some things fairly soon.

The surveyor for my current boat's purchase survey checked the engine and ran it up on the hard. He was also a qualified marine engineer which was the reason he got the job.

 

[Just_sayin']

If someone is serious enough to pay for a lift out and survey they're serious enough for me to take them out for a trial sail or motor.

 

[jwilson]

Lots of good points in other posts. A few things to add:-

A survey is only valid the minute the survey has been done. The boat could then be relaunched and either hit a rock on the way back to it's mooring or have the engine seize. Also the surveyor is only accountable to the person who commissioned and paid for the survey - no comeback on him if the survey is later used by someone else.

"Sea trials" are not normally, on sailing yachts anyway, to see if the buyer "...likes the way the boat sails". They are to test things that cannot be tested ashore, such as engine under load, echosounder works, and do the sails set reasonably well. On planing powerboats there is some merit in a sea trial to test handling: ie does she get on the plane cleanly, does she chine-ride etc., and how noisy are the engines at cruising speed. Also on powerboats the engines can form a huge part of the boat value. Fortunately we ( Yachts for sale at Yachtsnet - UK sailing yacht brokerage and boat sales ) won't deal with planing powerboats.

Anyone asking for a "test sail" on a modern Beneteau/Jeanneau/Bavaria etc is probably a very high risk of being a timewaster. They sail like modern AWBs, with minor variations that you can guess based on keel depth option, sheeting angles on deck etc. Nothing wrong with a seller taking a buyer out for a sail if they both are happy to do so, but for a buyer to insist on it is often a sign of serious inexperience. The phrase we dread is ".... you wouldn't buy a car without test driving it".

PS. We did once arrange a sea trial post survey on an unusual yacht that had done 4 transatlantic circuits in it's present ownership. The buyer flew in (two flights) for the scheduled sea trial which was done in a glassy calm.

 

[RJJ]

“Accepted practice” is only accepted if the punter decides to accept it.
I would not buy a second hand boat without some form of sea trial. On our first 2 boats it was an informal brief sail with the owner or broker (in the latter case, they knew the boat and had raced it previously). In the current case it was overseas, but I flew out a U.K. surveyor who did the sea trial with the broker.
Clearly if it is a sellers market, and lots of offers on a rare boat, then the seller may choose not to allow a sea trial. But if want to sell then they need to be prepared to be helpful or lose a sale.

If the broker says they can't take you for a sail because of their insurance, it's their problem. Do you want a sea trial on not?

There is no legal requirement.

The seller can take you for a spin. The seller can get his insurance company to agree the broker can do it. The broker can pay to upgrade their insurance. Or you can buy the boat and take your chances....

In terms of costs, when we bought our boat we contracted to pay for relaunch (as she was already on the hard) before the seatrial. The contract specified that rectification of faults in the seatrial was at the seller's expense, including hoisting if necessary. 20pc of price was retained in escrow to cover this.

Basically you can ask for whatever process suits you. It's part of negotiation as much as the price and completion date.

You may also wish to speak directly with the owner once you are at offer stage. Sometimes the broker is more hindrance than help. "Ooh, sellers don't normally do seatrails" when the chap is perfectly willing to make it happen.

 

[pvb]

I don't think I've ever been asked for a sea trial on any of the boats I've sold. However, I sold my last boat privately, with a Pre-Sale Agreement based on standard marine industry terms, in which the circumstances of any sea trial were clearly specified. The purchasers paid a 10% deposit on signing the pre-sale agreement. This is what the agreement said...


"2. PURCHASERS’ RIGHT TO SURVEY AND SEA TRIAL THE BOAT

2.1. Following signature of this Agreement the Purchasers shall have the right to survey and inspect the Boat at a time and place mutually convenient to the Parties, provided that any such survey or inspection shall be completed within 14 days of the date of this agreement. The Purchasers shall be solely responsible for the cost of any necessary transport, lifting ashore, cradling, re-launching and any other costs incidental to the survey.

2.2. The Purchasers shall be entitled within 7 days after inspection and survey, to require the Seller to perform a sea trial of the Boat. The duration of the sea trial shall be proportionate to the cost and complexity of the Boat and its systems but unless specifically agreed at the date of this Agreement shall not be shorter than 20 minutes nor longer than 2 hours. The Seller shall be obliged to insure the Boat for the duration of the sea trial. The Purchasers shall be entitled to be accompanied by up to two surveyors or advisers, any co-purchasers and not more than 1 member of their immediate family, subject to space constraints. The sea trial shall take place in reasonable weather conditions and not more than 2 miles offshore. Unless agreed otherwise the Purchasers and their party shall be responsible for supply of their own lifejackets and other safety equipment.

2.3. Within 3 days of completion of any sea trial or survey, or if neither is undertaken within 14 days of the date of this Agreement (whichever is the later) the Purchasers shall be entitled to reject the Boat by written notice to the Seller clearly stating that the Boat is rejected. If no such notice is given within the prescribed time the Purchasers shall be deemed to have accepted the Boat.

2.4. If the Purchasers validly reject the Boat and provided that the Purchasers have paid all incidental costs relating to any survey or sea trial the Seller shall promptly return the deposit to the Purchasers, otherwise the Seller may retain sufficient funds to cover the unpaid costs of any survey and sea trial and return any balance to the Purchasers. "

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I'd certainly accept a sea trial if it was offered, but I'd never expect one. As others have said, what could you learn from a sea trial that you couldn't find out from shore-side tests? At best, you'd only see how she performed on the day of the trial - you'd have no information about her performance in other conditions. And many boats are sold while ashore - you'd have to pay for a launch and lift out.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Dont forget that when buying the broker works for the seller and don’t use the brokers recommended surveyor

I'm not sure that's true. The only time I've used a surveyor I got him to do the boat I was buying. He did a good job - I knew little about boats at the time. Same as buying a house buyer pays.

 

[Rocksteadee]

I'm not sure that's true. The only time I've used a surveyor I got him to do the boat I was buying. He did a good job - I knew little about boats at the time. Same as buying a house buyer pays.

Which bit not true?
Might not be clear, if buyer pays for the surveyor he works for the buyer.
I have heard of a surveyor recommended by the broker but paid for by the purchaser but in the pocket of the broker

 

[ghostlymoron]

Which bit not true?
Might not be clear, if buyer pays for the surveyor he works for the buyer.
I have heard of a surveyor recommended by the broker but paid for by the purchaser but in the pocket of the broker

I think I may have misread broker for surveyor.

 

[lw395]

Dear all
I have bought and sold one boat and am now planning to buy another
When buying, the agents have told me that there is no survey available to view and that if I want to test drive the boat I must pay for a sea trial since there are regs which prohibit them taking me out as they would if buying a car
When selling, the agents asked me to supply a copy of the current survey and told me I had to take the buyer out for a test drive.
So the questions are
1. dont all insurance companies require a current survey ( I thought they did)
2. Are the regs quoted real of just an excuse (my boat insurer advised that agents should have they own insurance)
Thanks for your help

Are they 'agents' or 'brokers'?

 

[Chris_Robb]

I would have a sea trial if the boat I was buying had been laid up for ages, if only to see if the engine had seized. If selling, always disclose any faults. Then the purchaser can't beat you down on price when the said faults are raised in the survey,

Full disclosure: I would go further and list know and declared faults in the contract. This then helps the process of what happens post survey when the guy wants his money back.

The Dutch contract does this - anything not disclosed by the seller has to be replaced. But 20 year old electronics have a low value. If the value of the estimated repairs exceeds 10% of the sale value - either party has the right to start again, so up to 10% the buyer has to proceed.

This gives a greater clarity to the contract than the rather pathetic RYA contract! Much the same as anything done by the RYA!

 

[michael_w]

The Dutch contract is problematical too. You can't walk away if you get cold feet. Also the standard Dutch servey is a tick box exercise. I know I lost my deposit after getting stitched up by the broker and the useless surveyor. They refused to pressure wash the weed. I had another look and there was a 10mm gap between the canoe body and the keel. If anyone would like an English translation of the HISWA sales contract, pm me.

 

[Chris R]

A broker told me that they are not legally allowed to take prospective buyers out on the water ( can’t remember the regs quoted)
Has anyone been taken or known of anyone being taken on the water by a broker as opposed to paying for a formal sea trial