sea toilets

[nedmin]

Since I got my new boat been using the propriety toilet lubricants including cooking oils.work ok for a few days then need doing again.Then had a brainwave,didnt use these on my previous boat!,but I did smear silicon grease on piston and cylinder every winter. Did this and havent used anything since and still nice and smooth even after extended trips.

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[HeadMistress]

Anything thin enough to be flushed down the toilet will of course only be washed out in a few flushes.

Every new toilet leaves the factory slathered in synthetci teflon grease, which is why it lasts at least a full season. So you can either fight the never-ending battle of pouring something down the toilet every few weeks...or you can open up the pump and replace the factory lubrication once a year as preventive maintenance.

Your choice. But whichever method you choose, making sure the toilet is ALWAYS well lubricated will prevent the need to take it apart to replace rubber bits for years longer than will be necessary with no lubrication. I prefer the annual method because a) it allows one to open up the pump when it's clean and dry instead of when the bowl is full and won't go down...and b) because only pouring something down AFTER it starts to squeak and become hard to pump is tantamount to only adding oild to an engine after it starts to smoke...quite a bit of damage has already been done. Doing it on a schedule as preventive maintenance extends the life of even the cheapest toilet by yearsl

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[muchy_]

I always smear the O ring with silicone grease every couple of months. Never had any probs.

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[HeadMistress]

If you're gonna go to the trouble of opening up the pump to do smear only enough grease on a single o-ring to last a couple of months, why not put a healthy squirt of thick teflon grease into the pump instead that'll last at least a year...AND will also protect all the other rubber parts and the inside of the pump cylinder? You're doing at least 3x more work than you need to do to achieve 1/3 the result.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Peggie, I have Vacuflush toilets on my boat which have so far worked perfectly although sometimes the pump is slow to shut off which I guess is because the vacuum is slow to build up. I dont see any seals to clean or lubricate. Do you have any recommendations for regular maintenance of these toilets(I dont have any instruction manuals)

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[HeadMistress]

VacuFlush toilets don't require any preventive maintenance...only fixes for any problems. I strongly recommend that you get a manual for it...every possible symptom, probable causes and cures that a V/flush can develop is covered in it. You should be able to get one from any "authorized" V/Flush dealer...and it won't matter how old your toilet is, 'cuz the VacuFlush hasn't changed enough to notice in the 25+ years it's been around...the current manual is just as useful as the original.

Now to your problem: When the pump runs on longer and longer, it means one of 4 things:

1. it's time to replace the duckbill valves in the pump. This is even more likely if the pump cycles for no reason

2. there's an air leak in the system. However, that would also cause the pump to cycle for no reason.

3. a buildup of solids and TP in the pump

4. the vacuum switch is failing. Eventually the pump won't shut off at all, though it will have plenty of vacuum. Vacuum switches are expensive...so let's rule out anything else before we settle on that one:

How old is the system? Does the bowl hold water? Does the pump cycle between flushes.

There are two VERY common mistakes that many V/Flush owners make:

1. Releasing the pedal the instant the bowl is empty. The pedal not only opens the bowl, but also starts flush water running. The suction only pulls the bowl contents as far as the vacuum pump...the pump then pushes it the rest of the way to the tank or overboard while it pulls the air out of the system between itself and the bowl. So it's VERY import to leave the pedal down after the bowl is empty for at least 3 full seconds after urine only...at least 7 seconds after any paper or solids, to allow enough water through to rinse out the pump. Otherwise solids and TP can accumulate in the pump, interfering with the bellows' ability to move up and down. This will eventually cause the pump to take longer and longer to shut off.

If that's the cause of your problem, you MAY be able to flush it out with a LOT of water....fill the bowl to the rim and flush several times. It's also advisable to put at least one full bowlful through it once a day to prevent any buildup and also to completely rinse out the hose and vacuum tank, which will help to prevent odor and permeated hoses.

2. The second common mistake has nothing to do with your problem unless the bowl no longer holds water...and that one is: easing the pedal back up instead of letting it go to spring back up. The flush pedal is spring-loaded for a reason--to allow the dome to snap back into place with enough force to seat it properly so that it seals the bowl. Over time, easing it back up creates a "memory" in the spring that won't let the dome go far enough to seat any more. So just let it go...that's how it's designed to work.



<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[Jim44]

As you are the expert on this, I have normal electric flush toliets, very nosiy, what should I being doing? currently i dont do anything, is this correct?

The Boat is a 1999 Sealine F44

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[HeadMistress]

Electric macerating toilets that flush with sea water ARE noisy...'cuz contrary to popular belief, it's not the macerator and discharge pump that makes all the noise, it's the intake pump. So there's not much you can do about that unless you want to replace your toilets with models designed to use onboard pressurized water (don't even THINK of trying to modify yours to do that...that can't be done without risk of polluting the potable water supply).

As for maintenance, electric macerating toilets don't need much. There aren't any parts that require lubrication as manual pumps have. Don't put ANYthing down it except waste and quick-dissolve toilet paper...be sure to flush long enough to move bowl contents all the way through the hose to its ultimate destination--tank or overboard. Replace the joker valve annually (or at least every 2 years)...rebuild it every 5-6 years as PREVENTIVE maintenance...and it'll give you at least another 10 years of trouble-free service.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[andyball]

Noisy?

Peggie

Thanks for all the advice recently re. a macerator head for our boat....we finally plimped for a jabsco quietflush for reasons of spares availability + it was the right size/design to drop right in.

You've mentioned before that it's not the macerator/pump that noisy, but the seawater flush pump ?; well, ours is pressurised freshwater flush & it's LOUD.......aggravated by resonating the steel hull, but even so, it's a long,long way from quiet.

works great, but why do they call them quietflush?

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[HeadMistress]

Re: Noisy?

If your toilet were set up on the bench, it would actually be very quiet... it's your steel hull that's resonating. A 1/2" of rubber--not foam rubber, but solid rubber--under it should quiet it down considerably.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Peggie, the boat was built in 2000 and has very few hours so the toilets are still relativly new. Almost always, the pump switches itself off after a period of time (30 secs or so - does that sound right?) but on a couple of occasions it has continued cycling but I have flushed it a second time and then the pump stopped. This sounds like what you suggest in that debris got stuck next to the dome. I will instruct the family accordingly
Your advice is much appreciated



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[jfm]

Peggy, thanks for all this info.

We have a new boat (early 2004) with SeaLand vacuum flush toilets. They are the type you have in mind in your earlier posts on this thread, ie a "ball" at the bottom of the bowl and a foot pedal to operate. So far they have worked well,

1. Can you give a few more details on annual preventative maintenance please? When you say "open up the pump" is that item located with the £remote£ vaccuum unit, rather than right by the toilet bowl? On our boat access to the vacuum units is easy but access to the underside of the bowls would be tricky?

2. Do you have any comments good/bad on the Sealand brand versus the others?

3. Just for my edification, exactly how do they isolate the potable water from the fresh water supply that flushes the bowl? Some kind of non-return valve? It had better be pretty damned good.....

Thanks for the other tips, especially making sure plenty of flush water is allowed to run into the system each flush

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[Jim44]

Many Thanks, at least I know there is nothing really to do know

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[HeadMistress]

Mike 30-45 seconds is about the time the pump should run.

When it has run on till you've flushed a second time, it's more likely that something got stuck in a duckbill valve than in the "trap door" in the bowl. Allowing a bit more water to go through each time you flush by keeping the pedal down longer should solve that problem.


Now for your questions, JFM...

"Can you give a few more details on annual preventative maintenance please?"

The VacuFlush requires none...only repair when it develops symptoms.

"When you say "open up the pump" is that item located with the remote vaccuum unit...??"

Yes. The vacuum pump and vacuum tank are in the bilge, totally separate from the bowl assembly. There are no working parks in the pedestal under the bowl...the only parts in the whole bowl assembly are the water valve and an assembly that opens the dome in the bottom of the bowl and turns the water valve on and off. So there should never be any reason to remove the bowl from the pedestal unless it's leaking between the bottom of the bowl and the pedestal (NOT if the bowl just won't hold any water)...and no reason EVER to remove the pedestal. If you spend some time here: http://www.sealandtechnology.com/operation.html you should come away with a good understanding of how the system works.


Read your manual (get one if you don't have one) and study the exploded drawings for the bowl assembly and the vacuum generator or separate vacuum tank and vacuum pump.

2. Do you have any comments good/bad on the Sealand brand versus the others?

I've owned two boats with VacuFlush toilets and we were VacuFlush dealers when I owned my company...it's a fine toilet. For years, it was the ONLY toilet that offered pressurized water flush and used a lot less flush water than any raw water toilet. However, that's no longer true...now every major toilet mfr offers at least model that uses pressurized flush water and much less of it than raw water toilets plus additional advantages (maceration, dry flush), and all for 1/3-1/2 the price of a VacuFlush installed. So if I were boat shopping and found one that already had VacuFlush installed, I'd be delighted. However, if I were spending my own money to replace a toilet, I wouldn't spend the extra money for another one.


3. Just for my edification, exactly how do they isolate the potable water from the fresh water supply that flushes the bowl? Some kind of non-return valve? It had better be pretty damned good.....

It is. There are both siphon breakers and one way valves that prevent any migration of bacteria or backflow into the potable water system.


<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[jfm]

Thanks Peggy for all that info, very helpful.

FWIW by the way, you mention a vacuum pump run time of maybe 45 secs and the website you quoted says up to a minute, but ours actually run for perhaps 15seconds max - so Sealand might have uprated the vac pump recently (ours are only a few months old). This is quite good because the vac pumps are not exactly silent.......

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[HeadMistress]

How long the pump runs depends on how far it is from the bowl...the closer it is, the less time it takes to achieve the level of "vacuum" required for sensor in the switch to turn off the pump. So anything UP TO a minute is normal....it's when the pump starts running on longer than it has previously, or starts to cycle between flushes, that's an indication something is amiss.

The pumps on both my boats with V/flush toilets were under my berths...the d'd CHUNkaCHUNkaCHUNka resonating against the hull was loud enough to wake the dead! However, it's a problem that's easily solved...

If the 12v breaker panel on your boat is in a convenient location in the cabin, just turn off the head breaker before going to bed, back on in the morning. If it's not, you can solve the problem as I did: by installing a "night switch" in the head that allowed me to turn power to the system off before going to bed, back on again in the morning, without having to turn it off at the breaker. The accumulated suction already in the system allows the toilet to be flushed once whether power is on or not, but without power the pump run. Turn it back on again on your first visit to the head in the morning.

In fact, SeaLand offers "night switches," but like everything else from them, they're hugely overpriced. A switch is a switch...and any qualified marine electrician can install a simple rocker or push-pull switch for a fraction of what they'd charge, even just to buy and install yourself.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[jfm]

Re: sea toilets more questions

Ah that explains it. Our vacuum units are only about a 1 metre pipe run from the toilets, so less volume for the pump to re-vacuum. The chunka noise isn't too bad, well insulated and not located right under beds. But yes, swittching off at the breaker panel would ensure no noise in middle of night, I'll keep that in mind

Can I ask 2 other questions.

1. We have a contents indicator on the holding tank, 4 leds for empty, a bit full, quite full, and full. i think it's a solid state system, ie the thing inside the tank is not a float on an arm, it is a fixed set of sensors. Anyway, when we pump the tank out, sometimes it still reads say 1/2 full. Sometimes, it correctly reads empty after an hour or so. Is this because gunge attaches to the level sensors so gifving a false reading? I guess there isn't much that can be done to cure this...? I can't remeber the brand, it might say "tank watch" on the instrument panel or something.

2. Are macerator pumps for the tank pump out usually continuously rated, or (say) 5 minute rated? Ours has a non latching switch but because the tank takes say 10mins to empty (and you're driving along, so have to watch the helm) I sometimes put duck tape on the switch to make it latch "on". It then runs maybe 15 mins - sometimes it runs even when the tank has emptied because the contents LEDs "lie" as in Q1 above. Is this ok, I mean is it genrally ok to run these macerators continuously for say 20mins? And to run them offload, ie when the tank has already emptied? I appreciate the answer to this question is specific to the pump unit, but can you tell me what is generally the case.

Thanks


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[HeadMistress]

Re: sea toilets more questions

Ask all the questions you like...that's why I'm here.

Re your tank level indicator: That's most likely to due to the animal fats in waste beginning build up on the sender...although SeaLand TankWatch senders don't have a very long lifespan...a few years at most. Try this: pump out and thoroughly rinse out your tank. Then put a gallon of low suds detergent (none that have bleach, though) in it along with a full tank of clean water. Take your boat out and "rock and roll" for an hour...then dump or pumpout. Fill the tank with clean water again and dump or pumpout. If that doesn't correct the problem, the alternatives are: 1. remove the sender and manually clean the "probes" (personally, I'd rather eat worms)...2. replace the whole sender component...or 3. a different tank level monitoring system that doesn't use internal senders. There's one made here in the US that I especially like: the Snake River Electronics AcuGage system. Inexpensive (single tank system is only about $100 USD at discount...sender goes on the outside of any tank material except metal. You might consider it...the package weighs little, so the air mail postage is nominal. Check it out on their website at http://www.snake-river.org. The best price I've seen for it is here: http://www.boatfix.com/elec/acugage.asp scroll down to the "mini."

Re your macerator: From what you've said about the other components of your sanitation system, I'm assuming it's not a true impeller macerator, but the SeaLand T-Series pump, which is a diaphragm pump almost identical to the the VacuFlush vacuum pump (in fact, IS identical except for the valve nipples for the duckbill valves and the price).

Diaphragm pumps can run dry without harm...at least until they've run so long that the motor burns out. Up to 30 minutes occasionally shouldn't hurt it, but I wouldn't make a habit of it.

Impeller macerators, otoh, cannot run dry for more than a few seconds...any longer and dry friction heat destroys the edges of the impeller vanes. 10-15 minutes continuous running can burn out the motor.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987