Scuttled but

[Magic_Sailor]

Why?

In YM is an account of couple doing the ARC who had rudder problems and were taking on water. In the end they were taken off onto another boat - scuttling their own.

Why would they do that then?

Magic

 

[jimi]

I wondered about that as well! However the skipper and crew were not very experienced and no doubt felt unable to manage the situation and thus had to abandon ship. Presumably they then decided to scuttle in order to avoid their abandoned boat being a danger to other craft?

 

[AndrewB]

... and why ...

... is so little attention paid to providing decent emergency rudder arrangements, in 'Category A' yachts?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Disgust? nm

§

 

[IanPoole2]

The only reason I can imagine is the inflow of water was to great for the pumps, therefore the vessel would have sunk anyway, but whilst still semi afloat (or semi-submerged) may have posed a risk to other ARC boats in the vicinity.

All this is conjecture, I assume that were advised to scuttle by either the organisers or a MRC or another body.

 

[snowleopard]

last year...

a french singlehander lost his rudder and was taken off by Spirit of Clyde which was taking part in the ARC. his reasoning was that, with 2000 miles to go and the possibility of not having anyone in range if he got into further trouble, it was safest to abandon.

incidentally, the boat did not meet the french criteria for ocean-going yachts and he was expecting a hefty fine when he got home.

not all such stories have a sad ending: he introduced his rescuers to french cooking and they introduced him to scottish drinking.

 

[Paulka]

Re: Not scuttled but

About two years ago, I was sailing a regata from Mallorca to Formentera (south of Ibiza), Wind N-E F4-5, blowing since several days, choppy sea, F4, 5 to 6 miles (nautical) N-E from the harbour of Ibiza, around 7 pm end of August.

A boat called on VHF, requesting assistance, several boats from the regata, including myself (singlehanded), answered on the radio and went to the boat.

It was a sailing boat, around 12 m. with two persons (an elderly couple) on board. They insisted to abandon their boat, (probably chartered), as they were affraid of the night comming, althought, they would easily have reached Ibiza before night time, and the boat showed no problem at all (engine working, sails O.K., etc)

One boat of the regata took them back to Ibiza, and was able to reach Formentera in time to be reasonnably placed, actually in front of me!

I don't know what happened to the boat, althought I am quite sure somebody took the opportunity to have a good business!

 

[Magic_Sailor]

Further thoughts

I meant to mention this earlier. (OK, so the boat is scuttled to reduce the risk to other shipping - hmm its a very big ocean. Anyway...

These people appeared to have next to no experience and gaily set out to cross one of the biggest ocens in the world. This poses a number of questions:

1. What sort of person doesn't have the common sense to see this undertaking could be pretty difficult and might need a modicum of experience?
2. Shouldn't the organisers of the ARC check peoples experience prior to taking their entry money? (I know people can lie, but the question should at least be asked).

Magic

 

[andy_wilson]

1. I think the article says the action of scuttling was in consultation with a surveyor and the insurers.

2. They had little experience (but then most of us have little experience of losing a rudder and gaining a leak in the middle of the ocean).

3. The design of the boat would not lend itself to being sailed very well either without rudder, or with jury-rudder.

4. The design of the boat would not lend itself to a comfortable ocean crossing in good conditions with a strong crew of hairy-arsed sailors. It seems quite inappropriate to set off in one of those, without reliance upon support vessels - which of course they had.

5. Maybe the ARC is just like climbing Everest. Almost anyone can have go if they have enough money to throw at the project

6. In small boats crossing oceans and up Everest, people die.

 

[NigeCh]

Because

They had the guts to try and do it. That they had a wrong boat should be a lesson to all. With respect to all posters below, including Andrew B, the ARC is not an easy doddle. I did it in 2000 and it was an easy downwind doddle - perhaps the only one and even in moderate winds there were a series of accidents

Now take the scuttling of the boat (of a certain make) and just ask yourself why, if a rudder (?stock) fails then why should there be an intake of water? Perhaps you should ask Bruce Farr - His boats have the same potential problem, but at least his boats have the rudder stock in a (non-draining) seperate watertight compartment.

IMO, (Note, IMO) the CE Cat 'A' BUILDER certified boat is hardly Cat 'A' - and that was well demonstrated. Perhaps the owners took too much note of the CE defined status and thought that it meant that any CE Cat 'A' could cross the Atlantic in CE defined (RYA approved) conditions ..... Well the proof of the CE mark is in the scuttling.

.... just as STIX is about as much use as a fart in a thunderstorm (Read Marchaj)

 

[colvic]

Having watched numerous boats preparing for the ARCS in Gib last summer I have to say that most seemed to know what they were doing and had experience...even came across a boat with a dog that has crossed seven times..thinking of the mess still gets to me.

However, there were some people in evidence who should not have been going, and I would have thought that the organisers aren't short of participants so up the qualification by experience requirement and also the standard of the boat.

We took part in the Ruta de Sal a couple of years ago from Denia to Ibiza and even for that short passage there were minimum size and experience requirements and they wanted to see your papers when siging in. Ended up as good fun and safely done.

Is it a BRITISH thing to set off to sea when we shouldn't be?

Phil

 

[colvic]

One other thing I intended to say was that if it happened to me again, boat taking in water, May Day, rescue boats and a struggle that went on for ages to keep her afloat, well in future I WOULDN'T, well not if insured with Pantaenius. I'd let her go down and put myself first. Doing the right thing has cost me almost 10k and a stay in intensive care.


Phil

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Just in order to get a little level here, shouldn't be setting off according to who? you, me, the government, the RYA (all kneel).

Everyone is entitled to set off and sail anywhere they please as long as they do not expect some other poor soul to rescue them should they get into danger.

My hobby is getting more and more bureaucratic by the day and that is so opposite to the reason I love sailing. I am very conscientious of my vessels safety and back up safety and feel able to make decisions as to where and when I sail without permission.

The Sea should be a place of freedom; nothing will ever be achieved by anyone who is unwilling to take a risk.

Documents do not ever prove competence; that is something you earn with experience.


Julian

http://www.ukstaffords.com

 

[Metabarca]

This discussion is becoming very similar to the ongoing arguments about the risks of heading for the hills. How many people are killed every year because they wander off up Ben Nevis or in the Alps and lose their way/fall off/get trapped by weather? Some are plainly stupid and need their heads banged together (setting off in city shoes or without the slightest inkling of where they are at). But many others are reasonably experienced, well-equipped and sometimes plain unlucky. And of course, both the idiots and the unlucky are rescued by volunteers who put their own lives on the line. Just like at sea. Legislation will never solve the problem (how do you stop someone setting off up one of millions of footpaths?!); only education can. Which is the role of alpine (or sailing) clubs, national associations, TV, etc. Of course, hitting the fools where it hurts - in the pocket - (assuming they survive) is also educative, for them and everyone else. So, unless you are insured, in some Alpine countries you now pay for helicopter rescue. Most mountaineers are insured - through their alpine clubs. I belong to the Club Alpino Italiano and for my euro 42, I get full insurance (plus the mag, reduced rates in huts, use of the library and facilities, organised trips, access to courses, etc., etc.

 

[colvic]

Jules

Didn't mean to offend but you will see that I stated "qualification by experience".

Like yourself I am fed up with legislation, red tape and the whole mamby pamby way of life rapidly erroding some elements of the UK population. I like Spain where there are just as many regulations and more so in boating, but you are not hounded all the time BUT when you do come a cropper through your own stupidity or arrogance then you are made to pay in more ways than one. Lifeboat crew at Newhaven told me about several call outs to broken down boats where the skipper wanted either a mechanic bringing out or some fuel. A classic for me was the one "we'll tow you into Newhaven, sir; I don't want to go there, take me to Brighton"

If it really was every man for himself and you had to rely on yourself and there wasn't someone comming out to "rescue" you from your own stupidity then these things wouldn't happen any where nearly as often.

Enjoy your pastime


Phil

 

[NDG]

Re: Because

Haven't seen the article, and I wondered what sort of boat it was?

 

[AndrewB]

Cat A means ...

... the yacht is capable of being taken anywhere.

I have this on the authority of a yacht salesman on a stand not wholely unconnected with Hunter-Legend, at last year's Soton BS.

(Of course, he could have meant as deck cargo).

 

[AndrewB]

Hunter/Legend 450 (nm)

#

 

[jimi]

Re: Hunter/Legend 450 (nm)

Would'nt have though Cat A would be a problem for that!

 

[Badger]

Is it a BRITISH thing ..

to set off to sea when we should not..........no but it's very French