scout leader drowns off Llyn peninsular

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

A female scout leader has drowned after being swept out to sea in front of a group of scouts.
Barbara Pearson, 54, was on a rubber ring caught by the tide on Friday night off Porth Colmon on the Lleyn Peninsular, north Wales.

more at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2977825.stm>bbc news</A>

this is really sad, but again someone has been swept out to sea on an inflatable, why are people not realising the danger, on a windsurfing site it lists for porth colmon that experinced wind surfers only should use the area, which basically says to me that it is unsutable for any form of inflatable at any time. I know from sailing around that area that the current can rip through there, especially further around by Bardsey.

I hope the scouts will be ok and the family of the leader will cope with their loss, and that this will be the last incident in the north wales area of this kind.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

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[mickshep]

What!!!!!!!! Is this for real???? Let me get this right. A 'responsible' adult, charged with ensuring the safety of a group of youngsters at the sea side, took a rubber ring in the sea, From this I take it that should the kids in her care have wished to do the same, she would have allowed it. No bloody wonder the government feels it needs to hold our hands at every turn, Sympathy? none whatsoever. Just immense relief that I'm not reading about another tragedy on the level of what happened in Lyme Bay only a few years ago. Bloody angry. Mick

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[sailbadthesinner]

Madness

I have to declare an interest here. I am an assistant scout leader. I am currently awaiting re assessment as a canoe instructor and training as a dinghy instructor.

Now my last canoeing certifaction expired some time ago and i am about to undergoe re-certification. but as it was i was classified for what was then B1 and C1 which is lakes and slow moving rivers.

There is no way i would take scouts out on the sea, or anyone else not at least at my level. The sort of craft used in normal scout canoeing are the plastic banana type. They sit on the water and have raised sterns and bows to allow them to be turned on a sixpence. this also means they can be blown about by the wind and an inexperienced canoeist can be blow a fair distance in anytime. combine this with chop that you get at sea and the occupant can be a distance away and in the water in no time. Hence the leader who went to effect a rescue got blown over themself.

i was in the water at knee level the weekend before last and it was freezing, without a westuit. even if the leaders were inexperienced about tides offshore winds they should know about cold water. this is loss of life due to sheer bloody stupidity naeivity or ignorance.

either way it makes it increasingly harder to allow me to take my troop out on activities, land or water based, that involve any risk. More importantly it makes it harder and harder for me to get volunteers to help. without these activities my kids will drift away and return to playing on playstations or hanging outside the off licence. that is everyone's loss not just theirs.



<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[vyv_cox]

This is a strange case and I suspect we may find more about the circumstances before a conclusion is reached. Porth Colmon is a popular diving beach with good sand and a campsite nearby. It faces north west. The bay is not particularly large but has good shelter from each arm, so can often be relatively windless inside. Just off the headlands, though, are some of the UK's strongest tides and anyone straying that far in an inflatable would be swept away very quickly.

My opinion, with very many years' previous experience as a Venture Scout leader, is that Scouts, i.e. up to the age of 15, should not be on any sort of water at this time of the year. Venture Scouts maybe, but definitely not on the north side of the Lleyn Peninsula.

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[mickshep]

Hi Max. I take my hat off to you mate. I used to do a bit of sailing instruction in the lakes with youngsters. loved it. also worked with abused kids in Sheffield on a voluntary basis, very challenging but bloody satisfying, Gotta face it though, every example of this type of madness is another nail in the coffin for outdoor activities of any sort for kids, Its a crying shame. Way back when I was a scout we did survival training, how to catch and prepare rabbits, fish and birds. Me I sliced my finger open skinning a rabbit. result? short delay whilst cut washed, plaster stuck on, back to preparing and cooking rabbit, why? because that rabbit was my dinner. Hell we even taught to respect our elders. Can you imagine result today, thats if the do gooders would let us have anything sharp/uncooked/not prepacked, to play with in the first place, no chance, but send em to the seaside with rubber rings to play with. Cheers Mick

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[sailbadthesinner]

sorry vyv i donot agree.
we had scouts canoeing 2 weekends ago on a scout site in the midlands. It was a sunny day and the water was not too cold. had any of them gone in they would be in a Bouyancy Aid and we could have them ashore and dry in no time.

I agree that every effort should be made not to get them too wet this a time of year, so x rescues etc are out .and they did not spend more than an hour and a half on the water. but crickey kids are a lot more resiliant than we give them credit for.

Also as an ex venture they are more trouble cos they take more risks /forums/images/icons/wink.gif


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[AndyL]

\"We don\'t know all the facts at the moment\"

appears to be the summation of this tragedy. That the poor woman had survived to her age indicates at least she had some modicum of sense, and her leading a troop indicates her willingness to help others.

She made a mistake which proved to be fatal this time - for her. Some sympathy for her family might be appropriate rather that grousing about how difficult it becomes for you and your scout troop.

People die - it's a fact of life. If you didn't know this already, you better learn it preferably before it happens to you.

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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: "We don\'t know all the facts at the moment"

I am sympathetic for her family. i had typed that then deleted having got rather wound up. I am sorry but i think anyone doing this should be well versed in it and know about tides etc.

I would not contemplate taking scouts canoeing in the sea. least of all take a rubber ring into the waterat this time of year. i have every admiration for anyone who is prepared to do stuff like this. but enthusiasmand good nature cannot abdicate a responsibilty to know what you are doing.

apreciated your statement re facts but you cannot tell me this could not have been avoided with abit of common sense and forethought?


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[sailbadthesinner]

agreed
i did things as a scout that would break every rule in the book now.
it is challenge for all those involved in working with youngsters to fund, plan and people activities like this.
for those kids with parents wealthy enought to go to activity camps in france etc. it is okay. but for many of our kids we are their only access to such activities

As my last words can i say this. Scouting offers young people the opportunity to stretch and be stretched. As someone one said accidents do happen and we have to accept this learn and move on.
to see the satisfaction on kid's faces completing activities like those offered by the scouts it is a rewarding experience. i speak as a lowly ASL and these are my own opinions. Your local troop is staffed by volunteers who always need help, equipment, time or funds. go and see what they get upto for yourself. it will restore your faith in today's youth. at least it has mine.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[jimi]

I don't know if my perception is valid but I get the impression that some of the leaders have done the leadership courses etc but have not got the experience to be aware of danger and develop the necessary 'common sense' for an environment which is relatively alien to many. I am thinking particularly in the contexts of both the mountains and the sea.

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[vyv_cox]

Their undoubted resilience is not the issue. A kid from many areas of the third world would consider most European kids to have a life of unachievable warmth, luxury and mollycoddling.

The fact is that things go wrong even with the best preparation and precautions imaginable. When they do, who gets the blame - the leader. This has nothing to do with the ability of the leadership nor the willingness of the kids, it has everything to do with the lawyers and the liability culture. When things go wrong in UK, somebody has to be at fault and the press will not rest until they have proved it. It's a remarkable contrast with Holland, where I see hundreds of kids out sailing apparently unsupervised, in totally inapproriate clothing and without a buoyancy aid to be seen. They are no more resilient than our kids, it's just that the liability culture hasn't spread here yet.



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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: have to agree

'The fact is that things go wrong even with the best preparation and precautions imaginable. When they do, who gets the blame - the leader. '

have to agree. and as you say it is the lawyers

probably the same lawyers who will, in years to come, write long letters to to the Telegraph stating that 'in their day' kids went off bike riding, sailing and canoeing with scouts etc.. and did not sit in front of pc's getting obese or out on streets causing trouble
hey ho



<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[mickshep]

Re: "We don\'t know all the facts at the moment"

Sorry Andy but can't agree, accidents do happen, but we are not talking about just anyone here, this lady was in charge or at least partially in charge of a group of youngsters, she was ,apparently a trained scout leader, surely in this day and age bearing in mind the "sue em" culture that we live in today, any such trip would involve risk assesment at some stage and if not then perhaps a modicum of commen sense. Otherwise we'd see organised skate boarding trips on the M1 because its flat. Rubber rings and inflatable toys are just that. Toys. As such they should stay in the swimming pool. Mick.

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[tcm]

Re: \"We don\'t know all the facts at the moment\"

Swimming off Llyen peninsular with quick currents and blimmin freezing water sounds not a great idea. An easy rule would have been no swmming. Same incidentally with most rivers and even streams at least for next month in UK, temperature wise.

Oh, and i was sub-Olympic swimmer, paced for youngster Moorhouse, beat an ageing Brinkley. But that means I will be quickish up and down a swimming pool wherein I can still manage 20 yard bursts of almost 5knots. It also means I am loads slower than a crap fish, and I will die in too-cold water same as anyone else, but will have made it a bit further out, so will have further to swim back and fail against a 2-3 knot rip once a few hundred yards out.

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[vyv_cox]

It\'s the cold that does it

Spring Bank Holiday at Bala about 10 years ago. Beautiful weather but the water very cold, as ever at Bala until a couple of weeks in late August. A young man had been playing football on the camping field, then climbed into a canoe wearing only shorts, was seen to capsize about 100 metres out and was never seen again. We spoke to the police diving team for several consecutive weekends, they claimed they always found the bodies, but not this one.

Transpired that the man was super-fit, swam two miles in the sea every day. It seems that the shock of falling while still hot and sweaty into cold water is often enough to cause the heart to race, breathing to become uncontrollable and then the heart to fail. Potentially happens to nearly 50% of the population, apparently.

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