Sailing School Boats

[graham]

When I see a sailing school yacht with a crew of 4 or 5 students plus an instructor in boats generally in the 33 to 40 foot bracket.I wonder is this configuration of boat / people really preparing students for the real world?

I know there is no such thing as an average sailor but generally peoples first yacht is likely to be less than 30 foot and sailed with a crew of 2 or 3 ,very often husband and wife or small family units.

Would not better value training(for the student) be gained in a smaller boat around 28 foot for arguments sake.With an instructor and 2 or 3 students?

They would then learn the completely different skills of short handed sailing and also get more time on the helm .

Is the trend towards bigger boats with 5 students fuelled by business considerations or by the needs of the students?

Any comments from Instructors or students would be of interest.

 

[tcm]

oh dear, i do think you are using your own viwepoint here. What about those of us who learn on a boat about 35-40 feet long and then immediately buy or rent hideously large boats over 50 or 70 feet?

seriously, I think the comercial aspects kick in - 37 footers are now a "norm" boat that you can cram in loads of people. lowest price per head is the golden rule in the UK.

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[sailbadthesinner]

28 ft too small for chareter which is what these boats are used for when not sailing school
PLUS you need a big crew so everyone gets a taste of everything plus there is always someone free to make the tea
plus most people who enter the market now do tend to start with the bigger boats




<hr width=100% size=1>My wife wanted tender treatment, so i stowed her whilst at sea

 

[chriscallender]

One thought is that you don't always learn from "time on the helm" - watching how others do things well (and badly!) can be as much of an educational (and entertaining!) experience and with only 1 or 2 others on the boat there would be less of this. It could also be less of a sociable/fun event with fewer people - depending of course on the characters involved.


Chris

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[Sans Bateau]

Graham

The correct way to do it is to learn the hard way in a smaller boat and then work your way up to something larger with the experiance gained along the way.

The sailing school bit comes into play when you want to get a qualification in what you have learned. The larger boats used by sailing schools is the scale of economics, more students the cheaper it becomes.

Sadly there are those who do go out, take an intense course over a short period, down to the broker, buy a 36ft yacht, then the problems start! You will regularly read in YM about them.

Me? I'm still learning going up the ladder, this year 28ft next year.... does anyone want to buy a 28ft'r?


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[graham]

Almost Everyone so far seems to be in favour of larger boats /bigger crews,so perhaps I am out of touch with what goes on these days.

Do you really think that the average beginner goes for a 35 to 40 foot yacht these days?It would be interesting if any real statistics were available.

Dont get me wrong ,If you know you will be owning or chartering a larger yacht then it makes sense to be taught on something similar.

,as for my "view point"I regularily skipper a 26 ton 52 foot vessel, occasionally an 85 ton vessel as well as my own 22 footer.Usually short handed...

 

[jimi]

mmmm .. that's one viewpoint. What I've noticed in larger boats is that some of the most dangerous practices are by those used to small boats.I sail occasionally with a highly experienced RYA dinghy instructor and I've got to watch the silly old sod all the time with winches,gybes etc .. and I would'nt let him anywhere near the helm in close quarters under power. Where in a smaller boat you can get away with things because of the lower power on a sheet or the lighter weight of a boat etc.. However my judgement would be that it depends what you are trying to learn ...eg sail trim etc the best place is a small dinghy, handling under power .. a boat of the size,weight & type you're going to handle, winch useage .. the bigger the better and so on ...

<hr width=100% size=1>.. whit way roon should it be again ..

 

[zefender]

2 or 3 students plus instructor is 4 peeps. It starts to get a little too cosy given that everyone sleeps on the boat. Also cockpit space restricted.

I did a Day Skipper course on a Contessa 32. It was hopelessly cramped for 4 students plus one instructor over 5 days - fortunately we all knew each other so it was OK. But before this, I'd chartered many times on boats far bigger and now own a 40fter. The trend is definitely for bigger boats and although I agree you can learn a lot on a smaller, maybe twitchier boat, I think I'd prefer to be taught on one with more space. It's meant to be fun after all.

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[graham]

I know what your saying eg stepping onto the pontoon and grabbing the shrouds might stop a 25 footer doing one and a half knots but try it with a 35 footer!!!I have also come across highly skilled dinghy sailors that are an accident waiting to happen on a bigger boat.

But all this is getting away from my point that there must be lots of potential students who would be better served by a course on a smaller boat perhaps similar to their own.With a better ratio of student to instructor.

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[sailbadthesinner]

not so sure
you want a good few people on the course so you don't spend all your time manning the sheets or the wheel so the instructor can take time to show you stuff rather than everyone having to be occupied doing everything
also it pays to observe others not just do yourself

btw there is no bespoke correct way to learn as far as i know
you can start in any boat any size


<hr width=100% size=1>My wife wanted tender treatment, so i stowed her whilst at sea

 

[Sans Bateau]

I don't mean that small, 20 or 22 feet, small cruiser all the bits but smaller. just big enough for you and the wife as crew, being much nearer the water you will instantly respect it.

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[AlexL]

Apart from comercial considerations, I think you would have trouble getting anything under 30feet DoT charter coded. Plus it would probably sink under the weight of the all of the obligatory DoT required liferafts, lifejsckets, flares, etc etc.!

I think the reason a 36footer is now standard is that it is the smallest boat which has a stern rail large enough to attach the horseshoe buoys, danbouy, and liferaft ;-)

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[jimi]

Not to mention ... <font color=red>THE MOTORING CONE</font color=red>

<hr width=100% size=1>.. whit way roon should it be again ..

 

[FlyingSpud]

I’m with you on this, the answer though is available at most sea schools. Use your your own boat. When I did my RYA stuff, the instructor did it on my boat (then a 26’ Westerly Griffon’), with just me and the missus. The downside is that it cost a bit more, but not that much, because the sailing school was not tying up some of its resources.

As to people new to sailing going out and buying shiny new big boats, I don’t think anyone with experience thinks that is a smart move (or at least, I’ve never heard anyone argue it is), but it obviously happens, courtesy of the marketing division of Opal Marine et al.


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[Vasco]

it can be a smart move....

I think that it's a smart move for people new to sailing going out and buying shiny big boats , if they can afford them .
What's not smart at all is believing that they can actually SAIL them safely and eficiently .
Of course all the brokers will say that they'll be allright , no problem. She's insured anyway...and give us a call on the mobile if there's a problem....
I'v met met people new to sailing who bought big shiny yachts and have greatly enjoyed their boats , with safety and seamanship . They simply made sure that there were allways people on board who knew not only what they were doing but also what to do when things happened. And you don't allways need to pay for that....

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[chris_db4]

I did the YM wek + exam a few weeks ago did it on a 33ft'r and with only one other student and the instrutor it was an energtic week you steer i'll navigate turn and turn about for the exam we had another candidate so at least with 3 to handle the boat it worked well. learnt to handle a boat confidently last year borrowed dads boat and my brother, 3 weeks in scotlands west cost 36ft'r classic with no autohelm going to a little plastic 33ft thing was a joy it whent where you pointed and you could drive it backwards, sorry for anyone who was in or near the solent marrinas when i was there as i didn't get over the joy of driving backwards so did a lot of it. well all i need is the summer break from uni and i can spend an other 3 months playing about in boats.

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[deckham]

Graham, in an ideal world, learning on a pocket cruiser would be best. But don't forget a lot of men have lost the battle to interest their wives in cruising so are left with chartering or sailing school courses in one or two weeks of the year together with regular dinghy sailing and racing on weekends in the rest of the year. This works for me at least. I've easily spent enough on my hobby over the last few years to buy a small cruiser. I have to concede that I'm never likely to own one now. Also people like me are never likely to know one boat ' inside out' but we have a wide range of experience. We are just different kind of sailors !

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[graham]

I think that I didnt make my original question clear ,I am not trying to tell anyone how to learn to sail or what training is best I was just wondering if I had missed the obvious reason why I hadnt seen any small teaching boats.

I dont think that DTI coding would be a problem Most 25 to 30 foot boats can carry a liferaft all the rest should be on every boat.

I think after reading all the rplies the answer lies in the economics of it even though a smaller boat would be cheaper to buy and run its the instructors time that has to be cost effective .

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[Cornishman]

Whether you like it or not Sailing Schools tend to run RYA courses most of which are to learn the techniques of skippering. With the obvious exception of RYA Competent Crew each course is designed to make skippers at differing levels out of the students. To this end the ratio of 5:1 is the optimum for a 5 days course, giving each student the opportunity of being skipper for 24 hours. For the same reason each student is cook for 24 hours and deck hand for 3 days. Accommodation for minimum 6 is necessary, and in this day and age it has to be spacious and comfortable. Hence the larger yacht.

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[blackbeard]

Have to agree with Jimi.
I've done stacks of dinghy sailing and am an Instructor, and I also own a little (25') cruising yacht ... recently spent some weeks on a 67' steel yacht and it was DIFFERENT! a lot of the things you can get away with on a small boat, you can't get away with on a bigger boat, it's not just different gear but almost a different philosophy. Tension in lines could be in TONS, always handled through a winch, always think first ... Was well fazed for the first week or so. Even a 58' classic yacht I have sailed on a lot, wasn't quite on this scale.
It's probably true that the smaller the boat, the quicker you learn, but you can also get into what are, on a big boat, bad habits.
The ideal is probably to sail on a variety of different craft and learn to appreciate the characteristics of each. Failing which, learn on the type of boat you intend to sail.

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