Sailing retro low tech - legal risk?

DownWest said:
Entertaining thread. Most of my long trips into the void have been before elektonics. Just charts and compass +trailing log. Or, plenty of room to avoid nasty bumps. Obviously some luck was involved, though we usually arrived were we expected, often closer than my nav might have implied.
Now, looking at a trip were I don't know the area, I have a Yeoman. So , the paper I am used to, but GPS to make it easy.
Recent trip with a screen fixated friend got him disoriantated when his 'pad' quit. He needs to get the basics sorted. No real idea about nav and position, just via the 'screen' sort of worries me.
I like the idea of plotting one's progress on paper, with a combo of GPS and probably a 'map' .
The legal bit is more a 'care' thing.
Quite understand if a bloke who is supposed to be looking after and guiding some tyros who expect to be looked after and paying for such care, ends up in court.
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Aah the wonderful Yeoman an electronic paper chart!

I too use far more than the electronic screen.
 
For a record of my position whilst sailing, I frequently photograph the chart plotter. There is a visual record of my position on the chart, the lat/long, plus the boat speed over the ground and direction (the time is from the photo details). This is far greater information than any plot on any paper chart and takes virtually no time to do as my phone is kept under the sprayhood and easy to grab. The photos are brilliant in my videos to provide this information to the viewer.

Do any of you do the same? Or do you just use the chart plotteras your record?
 
Concerto said:
Why not use the technology that is available? A chart plotter certainly removes any doubt about your position and reduce the likelyhood of a navigational error. The Mark 1 eyeball is excellent in good daylight visibilty, but not very good in fog or on a moonless night. Earlier this year I found the chart plotter was brilliant whilst rounding Out Stack in less than 100m visibility (see my latest video) and whilst navigating through the Ramsey Sound near St Davids on a moonless night as there are no lit buoys to guide you through.

AIS is more about seeing what ships are near you and whether you are on a collision course. You also need to have a broadcasting AIS to let ships know of your presence. If you do not watch it carefully then accidents can happen, as happened a few days ago.
Fishing boat missing off channel islands
In virtually all conditions the Mark 1 eyeball works well - provided you keep a good watch arround the boat.
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We have been at anchor at night when hit by 40kt squalls and heavy rain. It's reassuring to see your position on a chartplotter when all around you you can see nothing. If we were dragging we would literally be flying on instruments to recover and reset the anchor.
I used to sail with no chart plotter back in the early 2000s having sailed as a youngster with no insttruments other than an echo sounder then at a later date, an RDF. We didn't have a VHF but we sailed all over the west coast of the UK and Ireland. Quite happy these days to have a chartplotter but I still feel the need in confined navigation to verify my position by other means. I never fully trust the plotter. Lots of bits of the Caribbean electronic charts are off by up to 30 metres in places. Not much use when navigating some of the cuts through reefs. Many yachts run aground here due to total reliance on the plotter
 
lustyd said:
Because augmenting the real world with plenty of accurate information makes life easier and people succeed more often.
If you think people never have issues with traditional compasses then you need to arrange navigation lesson 2 asap. Plenty of people got lost due to bits of metal, phones, cables near their compass. At least with a plotter you’d see your position going in the wrong direction while steering to a heading.
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Athomson said:
I doubt compass wrong due to magnetic interference happens often for long
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Reminds me of my YM Instructor course/assesment. I was steering, at night, on the course the navigator had given. I had a shore light as a guide, just checking the compass from time to time. The examiner came in to the cockpit. Next glance at the compass showed about 100 degrees change in heading. I politely asked him to remove the magnet from his pocket. He denied trying to interfere with the compass, then realised he had his camera light meter in a pocket. Yes, it was that long ago, well before GPS etc.
 
Concerto said:
For a record of my position whilst sailing, I frequently photograph the chart plotter. There is a visual record of my position on the chart, the lat/long, plus the boat speed over the ground and direction (the time is from the photo details). This is far greater information than any plot on any paper chart and takes virtually no time to do as my phone is kept under the sprayhood and easy to grab. The photos are brilliant in my videos to provide this information to the viewer.

Do any of you do the same? Or do you just use the chart plotteras your record?
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that sounds like a great idea in case of plotter failure. Might not help after sun spot or nuke EMP though :cool:
 
Regarding the magnetic compass:

"Solas requirements, chapter V annex 13, can be summarized in their main points as follows:

1)”All ships (excluding fishing vessels and pleasure craft under 150 gross tons) to be fitted with a magnetic compass or other means to determine and display the vessel’s heading independent of any power supply. ”

If big ships with gyro compass, GPS compass etc. still need a magnetic compass as fail safe back up I am happy to do so as well.
 
scottie said:
il

Probably the only time I have hade a serious argument was when the helmsman was steering into a large bay without seeing the encircling shore
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Same here, the owner wanted to sail into a port at night. I (the 'skipper') was concerned that she was not sure of position (lights, lack of made me cautious). When I realised that the stars were disappearing at a high angle, i.e. we were under a cliff... I told her 'no way' and put the helm down . Things were a bit frosty for the rest of the voyage, but my nav got us were we needed to go.
 
Athomson said:
I'm sure they'd have found sailing much less interesting with one. Explorers are a bit redundant without the unknown aren't they?
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But a chart plotter would not have been any use for Columbus as he thought he was sailing towards China as no one knew about the Americas, let alone how far it was to China.

Drake by comparison had no reliable way to determine longitude. A chart plotter would have solved this.
 
srm said:
If big ships with gyro compass, GPS compass etc. still need a magnetic compass as fail safe back up I am happy to do so as well.
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This could quite comfortably be the hand bearing compass on a leisure boat. I probably would want a ships compass for ocean passages but for coastal I'd happily take the risk and save some space if speccing a new yacht. My phone, watch, other watch, handheld GPS all offer backup compasses (and all function as plotters with charts too). I also have two plotters so complete failure is highly unlikely.
 
geem said:
We have been at anchor at night when hit by 40kt squalls and heavy rain. It's reassuring to see your position on a chartplotter when all around you you can see nothing. If we were dragging we would literally be flying on instruments to recover and reset the anchor.
I used to sail with no chart plotter back in the early 2000s having sailed as a youngster with no insttruments other than an echo sounder then at a later date, an RDF. We didn't have a VHF but we sailed all over the west coast of the UK and Ireland. Quite happy these days to have a chartplotter but I still feel the need in confined navigation to verify my position by other means. I never fully trust the plotter. Lots of bits of the Caribbean electronic charts are off by up to 30 metres in places. Not much use when navigating some of the cuts through reefs. Many yachts run aground here due to total reliance on the plotter
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Indeed, coral reefs are seldom accurately charted. Reading depth by colours is a fab skill to aquire. Exciting isn't it!
 
capnsensible said:
Indeed, coral reefs are seldom accurately charted. Reading depth by colours is a fab skill to aquire. Exciting isn't it!
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You raise a good point. Relying on a depth guage for depth is arguably more of a concern than other electronics. At least a lead line could be used at the bow ?
 
I've just remembered the delivery journey home from Otterham Creek on the Medway to Bristol. We knew the compass was knackered but didn't realise so were all the other instruments. We had a laptop plotter as well as the paper charts but the GPS believed that every roll of the boat was 180 degree turn. Whoops. I had left the handheld compass at home!

We day sailed all the way to Weymouth by pilotage when we installed a compass. And then the depth guage worked! From there we could lose sight of land for passage to Newlyn. After that it would normally be pilotage but we had mist from Lundy to Cardiff. Glad we got the compass, even though not entirely sure of its accuracy.
 
lustyd said:
You raise a good point. Relying on a depth guage for depth is arguably more of a concern than other electronics. At least a lead line could be used at the bow ?
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Depends on the nature of the sea bed. Coral heads can fox a lead line just like an echo sounder. It's a specialist skill that's not hard to learn though.
Once in Lagoons, the run off from land can make somewhat soupy waters in places. As an example, I went in to a small harbour in Culebra, USVIs with a knackered echo sounder but did use my lead line to sound out where to anchor. As you do.... :)

However, in waters that most forum users sail, I've found the echo sounder to be a fab tool, no matter what boat, yacht or motor, that I'm operating.
 
lustyd said:
My phone, watch, other watch, handheld GPS all offer backup compasses (and all function as plotters with charts too). I also have two plotters so complete failure is highly unlikely.
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Oh such blind faith or is it religious devotion to the reliability of an aging collection of satellites and their ground control stations.
 
srm said:
Oh such blind faith or is it religious devotion to the reliability of an aging collection of satellites and their ground control stations.
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It's not blind faith at all, it's understanding risk. If all that kit fails on a coastal passage it's still easy enough to get somewhere safely and fix it. The liklihood of all of that failing is approaching zero though. It's certainly lower than the risks accepted by things like air traffic control.
 
lustyd said:
This could quite comfortably be the hand bearing compass on a leisure boat. I probably would want a ships compass for ocean passages but for coastal I'd happily take the risk and save some space if speccing a new yacht. My phone, watch, other watch, handheld GPS all offer backup compasses (and all function as plotters with charts too). I also have two plotters so complete failure is highly unlikely.
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Hand steering after a total electrical failure, which I guess could be any small issue, by anything handheld and fiddly to steer by (hand bearing compass) or battery operated seem like a poor back up compared to a magnetic compass. How small will this new yacht be?
 
This is a fascinating thread. All of the 'tech' stuff requires power. The most basic thing, the compass doesn't, and it's a/the primary nav instrument, and we all have one.
Next most important would be a depth gauge; small amount of power, but still a power requirement. Most of us will have 'something' with GPS that we can read off against a chart, but GPS devices need power still.
However MK1 eyeball and a compass should put most ahead of the game to the point that if they're not helping, then you've a problem. All the tech in the world will help pretty much anyone, but as others have intimated, it's SOOO much better if you think ahead of the situation, and proceed in a 'what if' manner, and be 5 minutes ahead of the boat.
I'm incredibly 'power mean' as the main reason for the batteries is to provide power for the pumps (old wooden boat neurosis), and realise that this post does sound preachy, but it's a fact that it'd be better to anchor off and wait for fog to clear, rather than go in blind on GPS, for example. The harbour's not going to go away.
That being said, I do have an active radar reflector and AIS transponder which I do use when appropriate. The reflector uses almost no power, but does still require some power, so having a power failure would leave me potentially vulnerable. Any other reflector is virtually useless, so I'd not waste my money on one, and would borrow a tin foil hat from a forumite for the effect that they have!
Electronic aids are aids, and shouldn't usurp effort in keeping them to help, not as a requirement for safety.
 
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