Sailing retro low tech - legal risk?

[scottie]

I am very aware of advantages in using a chart plotter but also using an inappropriate screen either too magnified thus losing the larger picture or the opposite and losing detail

Probably the only time I have hade a serious argument was when the helmsman was steering into a large bay without seeing the encircling shore

 

[SaltyC]

Hmmmmm, to turn it all upside down. This week I took friends on a Prep week for Day Skipper course, to convince the wife she knew enough (had the theory and mileage / understanding) and shouldn't waste money on comp crew.

She completed a 4 mile upriver night pilotage into port using her 'plan' and the flashing red and green lights.

In the morning, Hubby brought us down in daylight using Mk 1 eyeball - all was well. However, the plotter showed us going straight through a port hand mark.

Had we sailed on the plotter we would have gone aground out of the channel, so question to electronic devotees - would we have been negligent and prosecuted following the chart plotter???

 

[srm]

Had we sailed on the plotter we would have gone aground out of the channel, so question to electronic devotees - would we have been negligent and prosecuted following the chart plotter???

Likewise, I have had my plotter showing the boat running along on the green stuff above the HW mark parallel to a narrow channel when there was water under the keel and I could see that we were mid channel.

To answer your question; I would suggest that you could have been found negligent. GPS/chart plotter, channel buoys, etc. etc. are all "aids to navigation" and any of them may be in error (except, perhaps, those like lighthouses that are firmly planted in the ground). Good practice is to always cross check with a different aid to confirm the information is correct.

In practice good situational awareness is normally our cross check, ("the real world is all around you") but should you make a serious error there will be "armchair experts" with lots of paper qualifications to tell everyone what you should have done.

 

[SaltyC]

Likewise, I have had my plotter showing the boat running along on the green stuff above the HW mark parallel to a narrow channel when there was water under the keel and I could see that we were mid channel.

To answer your question; I would suggest that you could have been found negligent. GPS/chart plotter, channel buoys, etc. etc. are all "aids to navigation" and any of them may be in error (except, perhaps, those like lighthouses that are firmly planted in the ground). Good practice is to always cross check with a different aid to confirm the information is correct.

In practice good situational awareness is normally our cross check, but should you make a serious error there will be "armchair experts" with lots of paper qualifications to tell everyone what you should have done.

As an old fogie, from the days before AIS, CAHRT PLOTTERS, GPS, DECCA, RDF I agree, however, my defence would be 'I followed the local Buoyage'

The recommendation for Caernarvon Bar (apologies for spelling) is ignore electronics and follow the buoys.

Totally agree with your last para, get your head out of the boat and look where you are.

 

[srm]

however, my defence would be 'I followed the local Buoyage'

Yes, in areas where buoys have to be moved more frequently than charts are updated you have to. If you do go aground the harbour authorities will probably thank you for finding the latest position of their shallow patch. However, its not unknown for navigation buoys to break adrift or drag.

 

[Supertramp]

The accuracy of electronic (and paper) charts is further compounded by the varying accuracy of GPS position data. On a bad day I have seen 10m+ accuracy which is of no consequence away from obstacles but makes a big difference at close quarters. Your plotter will tell you the accuracy but it's often hidden leading to belief in the exact position.

Eyeballs can be deceived but preferable by far in confined places.

 

[lustyd]

A chartplotter is next to useless at slow or near stationary speeds for giving or showing a course to steer.
Every chartplotter gazer should try the experiment of travelling at sub 2 knots in a reliable direction without any external reference point or using a compass.

Why should they? They’re getting on just fine with the tech you don’t seem to understand, so arguably it’s you that needs the lesson. Chart plotters work just fine at low speeds and indeed when stationary, they use the same principle as your little magnet in a bowl of liquid. The main difference is that on a plotter you can see where you’re going and where you’ve been as well as the compass heading alongside depth, other boats, chart symbols…

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The accuracy of electronic (and paper) charts is further compounded by the varying accuracy of GPS position data. On a bad day I have seen 10m+ accuracy which is of no consequence away from obstacles but makes a big difference at close quarters. Your plotter will tell you the accuracy but it's often hidden leading to belief in the exact position.

Eyeballs can be deceived but preferable by far in confined places.

Failure to keep a proper lookout, plotter or not, and you’re going to come to grief sooner or later, probably sooner.

I too like my magnetic compass to steer by, certainly couldn’t imagine casting off without one.

 

[Concerto]

Isn't the first screen that you have to acknowledge is " This equipment should not be used for navigation purpose!"

This screen is probably to protect the chart producer and plotter manufacturer from any claims due to any errors , rather than a warning about using the information provided.

 

[Supertramp]

Failure to keep a proper lookout, plotter or not, and you’re going to come to grief sooner or later, probably sooner.

I too like my magnetic compass to steer by, certainly couldn’t imagine casting off without one.

Agree, and probably of much more use than electronics (excluding depth sounders!). My understanding has come from using anchor watch functions and learning to add accuracy to scope to avoid unnecessary alarms.

 

[Adios]

In practice good situational awareness is normally our cross check, ("the real world is all around you")

If I start my kids off with plotters i bet the only time they will hone their situational awareness is after something has gone amiss due to one of the plotter gaffs being spoken of. Its easy for you and others who sailed without and learned to read the water and the banks to know where the channel is, but will people relying on plotters from day one develop that feel for what's around them to the same level and have that as an ever present subconscious cross checker? I fear not and that's a part of my reluctance.

 

[Adios]

Why should they? They’re getting on just fine with the tech you don’t seem to understand, so arguably it’s you that needs the lesson. Chart plotters work just fine at low speeds and indeed when stationary, they use the same principle as your little magnet in a bowl of liquid. The main difference is that on a plotter you can see where you’re going and where you’ve been as well as the compass heading alongside depth, other boats, chart symbols…

is it that more recent plotters have better inbuilt fluxgate compasses perhaps? I know from sat nav on my phone you don't get a good indication of the direction you're looking until you've move a bit from one point to another, the faster the better.

But still why do something with a complicated piece of electrical equipment when you can do it with something simple that can't run out of power. That said magnetic compasses can be messed up with something placed near it so its not infallible.

 

[lustyd]

But still why do something with a complicated piece of electrical equipment when you can do it with something simple that can't run out of power

Because augmenting the real world with plenty of accurate information makes life easier and people succeed more often.
If you think people never have issues with traditional compasses then you need to arrange navigation lesson 2 asap. Plenty of people got lost due to bits of metal, phones, cables near their compass. At least with a plotter you’d see your position going in the wrong direction while steering to a heading.

 

[DownWest]

Entertaining thread. Most of my long trips into the void have been before elektonics. Just charts and compass +trailing log. Or, plenty of room to avoid nasty bumps. Obviously some luck was involved, though we usually arrived were we expected, often closer than my nav might have implied.
Now, looking at a trip were I don't know the area, I have a Yeoman. So , the paper I am used to, but GPS to make it easy.
Recent trip with a screen fixated friend got him disoriantated when his 'pad' quit. He needs to get the basics sorted. No real idea about nav and position, just via the 'screen' sort of worries me.
I like the idea of plotting one's progress on paper, with a combo of GPS and probably a 'map' .
The legal bit is more a 'care' thing.
Quite understand if a bloke who is supposed to be looking after and guiding some tyros who expect to be looked after and paying for such care, ends up in court.

 

[Adios]

Because augmenting the real world with plenty of accurate information makes life easier and people succeed more often.
If you think people never have issues with traditional compasses then you need to arrange navigation lesson 2 asap. Plenty of people got lost due to bits of metal, phones, cables near their compass. At least with a plotter you’d see your position going in the wrong direction while steering to a heading.

I doubt compass wrong due to magnetic interference happens often for long if relying solely on the compass plus eyes you'd realise its taking you astray pretty my immediately you set off, at least before you reach your first mark. So unless you are setting off in a blinding fog it shouldn't be a problem before its realised something is wrong with the compass and rectify it. Can cross check with hand bearing compass

 

[lustyd]

No real idea about nav and position

People who don't know what they are doing are a liability. This is not related to whether they use technology.

 

[rotrax]

How did you pass the time instead?

I made it single handed to Sweden and back without a plotter, plus a few other North Sea crossings as well as the easy coastal pilotage as you say. As have probably all the older contributors here done similar. My fear is making it too easy and getting addicted to it. I think the happy medium is basic GPS on board as a back up and times when other position fixing isn't an option. Just wondering on the negligence thing but no one is coming with any examples that make me worry that its a risk

We have a simple watch system and are experienced night/poor visibility sailors. Writing the log, keeping an eye on the AIS, using the Mk.1 eyeball, preparing and eating food and drink, checking the instruments and engine gauges, always plenty to do. We do have the advantage of a huge warm pilot house.

Before this boat we did long passages without a plotter or autohelm. We have all the paper charts on board. We can do it the old way, we have the skill and experience but are not Luddites. Using what is available is the right thing for us. To be absolutely honest, competing in the January Exeter Trial on an antique sidecar outfit is far more daunting and far more challenging than pootling to Dartmouth from Littlehampton non stop in our modern motorsailer. Both take around the same time.

As I said earlier, would Drake or Columbus have turned a plotter down had they been available? I think not.

 

[lustyd]

I doubt compass wrong due to magnetic interference happens often for long if relying solely on the compass plus eyes you'd realise its taking you astray pretty my immediately you set off, at least before you reach your first mark. So unless you are setting off in a blinding fog it shouldn't be a problem before its realised something is wrong with the compass and rectify it. Can cross check with hand bearing compass

There are numerous threads on this forum over the years describing exactly this! Your eyes add very little to the awareness of direction when out of sight of land. You could use the sun or moon but they move quite quickly.

 

[Adios]

People who don't know what they are doing are a liability. This is not related to whether they use technology.

the point for me is if they didn't have the technology it wouldn't be so long before they had to know what they were doing

 

[lustyd]

the point for me is if they didn't have the technology it wouldn't be so long before they had to know what they were doing

I think the tech link there is entirely in your head. The same is true either way. I suspect the difference is the size of trip. My dad uses a plotter to drive his motor boat from Portsmouth to Cowes. before he had the plotter he drove his motor boat from Portsmouth to Cowes. If he crossed the channel with either set of tools he'd fail in the same sort of ways.