sailing luddites

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Discussions took place aboard this w/e when I went sailing with 3 lads in their late twenties.
At the end of the day we envied the space that the large mobos had but were fairly unimpressed by their gawdy styling. We saw the practicalities of the large sailing caravans on a calm sunny weekend and were partly envious of those more racy versions for those who go around the cans.
When passing a few traditional yachts from the late 30's and 40's we slowed to appreciate their grace and beauty, yet could imagine the discomfort on a long cruise.
Not so sure we would agree with the luddite theory though, I guess most people can see the need to be flexible in that different boats suit different needs.

 

[TamarMike]

Nowadays nearly all boats sold new are expected to be sold to a customer wealthy enough to keep it in a marina. So the ability to take the ground, be kept on a drying mooring or winter in a mud berth are irrelevant. Similarly with the rig the ability to easily carry out close quarters manouvering under sail are sacrificed in favour of keeping the rig as efficient as a modern racer (hence they can be advertised as a cruiser racer).
If you need to keep your boat in a drying harbour, swinging mooring or muddy creek you will almost certainly be looking at second hand boats of which, due to the fortunate longevity of grp there is still a good choice.

 

[webcraft]

I would agree to this. As a dedicated MAB fan (but not intolerable to AWB) I have found that many MABs that have had upgrades and priced accordingly sit around for a long time on the Brokers lists. However, this also supports webcraft's proposal that you can pick up a good MAB for a decent price as sooner or later the owner sells at the price that the market will support.

I also agree. In today's market we would be lucky to get back the £11k we paid for the boat, let alone the cost of the upgrades. However, if we were ever to sell then a lot of the 'goodies' would come off and be sold separately or be transferred to the new boat, and as for the rest of it we have had over ten thousand exciting and trouble-free miles, so at £1k per year or 75p/mile I would be quite happy with that level of depreciation.

- W

 

[Ubergeekian]

... when I sell my Bavaria in the next couple of years it will be in that unusual category of all the "extras" being relatively new. at least I hope that is the case as I shall be asking top dollar. ...

Think it is also true that heavy expenditure on upgrading an old boat adds little to its value. £10k spent on a £20k boat is unlikely to add more than £2-3k to sale value.

Aren't those two statements a bit contradictory?

 

[KellysEye]

>When passing a few traditional yachts from the late 30's and 40's we slowed to appreciate their grace and beauty, yet could imagine the discomfort on a long cruise.


Why should an older boat be less comfortable than a modern boat? We have comfortable beds, seats and cockpit cushions, well lit saloon and cabins day and night, large saloon, full size chart table, proper chart table seat etc. We are perfectly comfortable thank you.

I get the impression many people on here waxing lyrical about older boats haven't owned one, whereas I suspect those of that own one have sailed modern boats. We've sailed Beneteaus, Jeanneaus, Maxis, Gibseas, a couple of American boats and they certainly weren't more comfortable either in their interior or the slamming upwind.

 

[Tranona]

Aren't those two statements a bit contradictory?

Not really

The price band on "popular" boats (ie boats where there are lots on the market) is very narrow. In my case £50k+/- 5%. So my aim is to get near the maximum. The difference is potentially £5k from top to bottom. This extra does not recover the extra expenditure this year on preparing the boat for the long passage we are currently undertaking, but for the right person who wants do do similar things it will represent good value.

Will report back if this works when I actually sell!

 

[Tranona]

Is it possible to give more details or even link to the MAIB reports for these two, I'd like a read.

www.maib.gov.uk Reports are in various formats from brief summaries to full reports going back 15 years or so.

 

[Woodlouse]

Interesting use of termonology.

With one or two exceptions, show me a fatal accident where design and type of boat was a major factor. Only ones that spring to mind are keels falling off racing boats and two modern designs being overwhelmed by conditions. (Read the MAIB reports for all the details).

Fair enough the phrasing might have been a bit strong, but I think you get my drift.

A fatal accident caused by design, and type of boat you ask? The Bavaria Match 42 scandal a few years back is one example. But I don't think this discussion really needs to go there.

My point was that there are modern boats that are awful, and there are MAB's that are too.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter who's right or wrong here. I'll just end by saying that I'll always be filled with a sense of pride, when rowing away from the boat, and knowing that it is without doubt, the best looking boat in the harbour. No matter what harbour she might be in at the time.

 

[Flapjack]

Indeed you are right, and no one will disagree that a fine old wooden sailing yacht 50, 60 or a 100 years old is not a very capable thing of beauty, the days when a gentleman had a full time crew looking after his boat. However if that were the only way boats were built today, then it would put boat ownership beyond the means of about (say)90% of people, generally people could not afford the yard costs or the time for the maintenance required. Also to hand build a wooden boat would cost many time that of GRP.

For a comparison to cars, seems to be the thing to do, forget Land Rovers or Transits, how many people use a Morgan as day to day transport?

IF a the only cars were Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini or Zonda how many of us would be driving, let alone having two or more in the family lol

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Nah, first post says that this thread is born out of the long keeler thread: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238034

Whoops, you're right, I'm wrong.

 

[LadyInBed]

Why is it that sailing has so many luddites?

You compare boats to cars and bikes but not, I note, to houses!
IMO older houses are constructed much better than the boxes that are thrown together these days, and I believe boats to be the same.

 

[Mark-1]

Is it possible to give more details or even link to the MAIB reports for these two, I'd like a read.

www.maib.gov.uk Reports are in various formats from brief summaries to full reports going back 15 years or so.

Thanks, I was really looking for the MAIB reports for those two specific incidents. Do you recall boat names or locations or even rough dates? I don't think I'm going to track them down without a little bit more detail, no matter how vague.

 

[Seagreen]

Indeed you are right, and no one will disagree that a fine old wooden sailing yacht 50, 60 or a 100 years old is not a very capable thing of beauty, the days when a gentleman had a full time crew looking after his boat. However if that were the only way boats were built today, then it would put boat ownership beyond the means of about (say)90% of people, generally people could not afford the yard costs or the time for the maintenance required. Also to hand build a wooden boat would cost many time that of GRP.

Well here goes:

Singlehanding owner of old 35'6" gaff Yawl. Age of boat, 150 years. 70% original timber, speed (last checked), 7.5kts on a reach in a F3, towing a wooden dinghy.

Annual fixed costs;
Insurance, £400, annual mooring £111, winter berth £400. Big Bills are a strain like engine servicing, but as I do everything else myself, its just consumables, say an extra £300 per year. As I don't smoke or drink in pubs much, I think I get a good deal.

The look on peoples faces as we sail by:

Priceless.


However, I'd not like to take her out in anything over a F5 or in bigger waves. I think that's understandable. And some help with the varnishing would be appreciated.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks, I was really looking for the MAIB reports for those two specific incidents. Do you recall boat names or locations or even rough dates? I don't think I'm going to track them down without a little bit more detail, no matter how vague.

I would have to do the same search as you as I don't have the specific references to hand. There are two racing yachts that lost keels, one about two years ago off the IOW and the other about 4 years ago in Lyme Bay. Both structural failures.

The other two were both AWBs. One a Beneteau that was overwhelmed in the Needles Channel about 10 years ago, the other also a Beneteau in the Bay of Biscay about 15 years ago. The last named was pivotal in determining stability criteria for the RCD.

It is worth bearing in mind that the conditions in which these boats foundered are way beyond anything the typical cruising yottie will ever experience.

That is the nature of "disasters" - they are almost always the consequence of a series of individual negative events. Therefore they have lessons about what CAN happen in extreme situations but are a poor guide to what ACTUALLY happens in everyday life!

 

[Mark-1]

One a Beneteau that was overwhelmed in the Needles Channel about 10 years ago, the other also a Beneteau in the Bay of Biscay about 15 years ago. The last named was pivotal in determining stability criteria for the RCD.

Thanks, that narrows it down a bit. (Unless anyone else can speed things up by giving me boat names/posting links to the specific reports.)

 

[flaming]

Thanks, that narrows it down a bit. (Unless anyone else can speed things up by giving me boat names/posting links to the specific reports.)

The race boats were Hooligan IV and Bounder respectively, and whilst worth a read are not really relavent when you're talking about cruising boat manufacture. The Needles boat was a charter boat crewed by off duty policemen returning from poole. It was more than 10 years ago though, I think 96-97...? I remember discussing it on a sailing course I must have done about then. Pretty sure it was an Oceanis 350.

Don't recall the Biscay one.

 

[webcraft]

.
Biscay one was the 'Ocean Madam'. She was a Beneteau 390 that capsized and failed to right with the loss of one life. The incident occurred during a crossing of Biscay on 8 October 1997

MAIB Report

Conclusion no. 3.1.3 was:
"The Oceanis 390 is a safe, comfortable, yacht suitable for pleasure sailing and charter work. Her lightweight design, however, together with her stability characteristics, introduce a high risk factor in the type of extreme sea-state conditions encountered by Ocean Madam. The yacht is not designed for crossing oceans in bad weather."

- W

 

[Woodlouse]

If I remember correctly the Hooligan V accident was caused by metal fatigue where the fin of the bulb keel met the hull. The was due to post manufacture modifications to the bulb and not the fault of the actual design or build of the vessel.

Of the other incidences I know nothing about them. But I don't think this discussion was ever intended to be about safety. After all, if we all based our boat purchases solely on the basis that they'd never sink or be overwhelmed then we'd all be sailing Challenge 67's.

 

[Mark-1]

The Needles boat was a charter boat crewed by off duty policemen returning from poole. It was more than 10 years ago though, I think 96-97...? I remember discussing it on a sailing course I must have done about then. Pretty sure it was an Oceanis 350.

Thanks, that kind of detail really will help.

Don't recall the Biscay one.

I think he might be talking about "Creightons Naturally". I remember it well because I had a friend on it but it doesn't really fit for a large number of reasons.

 

[Mark-1]

.
Biscay one was the 'Ocean Madam'. She was a Beneteau 390 that capsized and failed to right with the loss of one life. The incident occurred during a crossing of Biscay on 8 October 1997

MAIB Report

Conclusion no. 3.1.3 was:
"The Oceanis 390 is a safe, comfortable, yacht suitable for pleasure sailing and charter work. Her lightweight design, however, together with her stability characteristics, introduce a high risk factor in the type of extreme sea-state conditions encountered by Ocean Madam. The yacht is not designed for crossing oceans in bad weather."

- W

Thanks, that's put me out of my misery.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_by_vessel_type_/leisure_craft.cfm