jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Yachting Luddites come in many forms . . . just look at the number of new AWBs with CQR anchors (Good enough for Chichester and Hayman!).
sailing luddites
- Thread starter wotayottie
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oldsaltoz
Well-Known Member
I loved my Tranny, sorry I ever sold her, no in a Tojoe.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
You should visit Antigua Classics week to see boats most people would give their eye teeth for. Our boat has done Classics three times and it's nothing to do with luddites just people who like sea kindly, pretty boats with character rather than GRP lookalikes. I wouldn't claim our boat is better just different and what we want. Horses for courses.
Genoa
Well-Known Member
But why the comparison to cars and bikes? For most of us our boat is our home away from home. On that basis, what is your favorite home? A modern box on an estate or a charming cottage overlooking your favorite piece of water?
Maybe, the ideal is a modern (water proof and efficient) boat to a traditional design that is prooven to perform, with a few extra luxuries.
Maybe, the ideal is a modern (water proof and efficient) boat to a traditional design that is prooven to perform, with a few extra luxuries.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>Maybe, the ideal is a modern (water proof and efficient) boat to a traditional design that is prooven to perform, with a few extra luxuries.
Ah, Spirit yachts. They are truly pretty and truly expensive.
Also, you are right, houses are more relevant to yachts than road transport.
Ah, Spirit yachts. They are truly pretty and truly expensive.
Also, you are right, houses are more relevant to yachts than road transport.
xtiffer
Well-Known Member
Alfie168
Well-Known Member
If cost were no object I'd love a wooden boat. It isn't, so I admire them and do my best to enjoy what I've got.
I like boats, I've never seen the need or point of niggling over age or materials. A boat under sail is a joyous thing to behold....unless its on port tack and on a collision course with yours.
Tim
I like boats, I've never seen the need or point of niggling over age or materials. A boat under sail is a joyous thing to behold....unless its on port tack and on a collision course with yours.
Tim
nct1
Well-Known Member
Not so sure about the car analogy, we have something modern but almost anything that goes wrong must be dealt with by main dealer, so seriously looking for older stuff you can actualy fix without taking out a mortgage.
For instance we had to pay £300 to replace a fuel additive sensor that only the manufacturers could "programme" in. I estimate the part (a glorified fuel sender unit) cost £10 to make.
The same manufacturer bolts a bracket over the oil filter so that it appears impossible to change unless you have their expensive tool.
The local non franchise garage won't do the next service because it had elements that only a franchiesee can do.
In hot weather it runs lump at anything under 2K, something the franchise could not fix, and given it's everything must be run through their computer ethos, I really don't stand a fighting chance fixing it myself.
At the moment a couple of things go wrong a year.
So, I may be a luddite, but a luddite that will not be taken to the cleaners again by modern French rubbish.
That is not to say that all modern cars are bad, or all old boats are better then new ones, but there is a certain benefit to having something that is sturdy and easy to maintain.
For instance we had to pay £300 to replace a fuel additive sensor that only the manufacturers could "programme" in. I estimate the part (a glorified fuel sender unit) cost £10 to make.
The same manufacturer bolts a bracket over the oil filter so that it appears impossible to change unless you have their expensive tool.
The local non franchise garage won't do the next service because it had elements that only a franchiesee can do.
In hot weather it runs lump at anything under 2K, something the franchise could not fix, and given it's everything must be run through their computer ethos, I really don't stand a fighting chance fixing it myself.
At the moment a couple of things go wrong a year.
So, I may be a luddite, but a luddite that will not be taken to the cleaners again by modern French rubbish.
That is not to say that all modern cars are bad, or all old boats are better then new ones, but there is a certain benefit to having something that is sturdy and easy to maintain.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
If you are going to introduce the property analogy, you may well be sitting in a drop dead gorgeous cottage, but like the old boat the maintenance is going to be a mill stone, plus sitting in your cottage, the view is only what surrounds you, if it is on the edge of an estate, then modern boxes may well be your view. Those living in the modern box may well have your lovely cottage as their view.
As I said before most of us cannot afford the time or cost of the maintenance of these boats, so there is not the need for the snobbishness of better than you. I own my boat to sail, not because I like varnishing.
It also makes me chuckle the often used term 'sea kindly' when refering to any older boat. Two things always spring to my mind, just as well they are sea kindly, they need to be comfortable in bad weather as they need a F7 to get going. The other thing is that they often take so much water into the cockpit from all directions, they sail through the water rather than over it. But that is a flippant observation so dont be offended.
I'd like to thank anyone who own a wooden classic, thank you for ensuring when I'm out sailing, I have something nice to look at.
As I said before most of us cannot afford the time or cost of the maintenance of these boats, so there is not the need for the snobbishness of better than you. I own my boat to sail, not because I like varnishing.
It also makes me chuckle the often used term 'sea kindly' when refering to any older boat. Two things always spring to my mind, just as well they are sea kindly, they need to be comfortable in bad weather as they need a F7 to get going. The other thing is that they often take so much water into the cockpit from all directions, they sail through the water rather than over it. But that is a flippant observation so dont be offended.
I'd like to thank anyone who own a wooden classic, thank you for ensuring when I'm out sailing, I have something nice to look at.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>they need to be comfortable in bad weather as they need a F7 to get going. The other thing is that they often take so much water into the cockpit from all directions, they sail through the water rather than over it.
It might be flippant and I'm not offended but that's nonsense. If you have sailed a long keel heavy displacement boat and what you claim is what you experienced then she must have been a dog. What you say is not our experience.
It might be flippant and I'm not offended but that's nonsense. If you have sailed a long keel heavy displacement boat and what you claim is what you experienced then she must have been a dog. What you say is not our experience.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I'm with you all the way until you assume pretty and classic equals seakindly. It doesn't always work out that way.
There are lots of old boats that sail like dogs.
There are lots of modern boats that sail very well.
There are lots of old boats that are pretty - and I guess the ugly ones have all been broken up because no-body loved them?
There are 'some' good looking modern boats.
In addition, lots of people either haven't got the time and skill or inclination or cash to maintain a classic boat in a condition that people will admire, rather than - a 'nice boat, but its a shame that she's been let go so far' condition. Lots of people do have the money to buy a GRP boat and enjoy sailing it.
In the meantime I am going to start a campaign against alleged superiority and smugness, from those who think that theirs is better than anyone else's. Its one thing to have pride in your possessions, but its getting to be distasteful the way that some people drop their opinions about...
stav
Well-Known Member
So if I do not buy flat pack furniture I am a Luddite?
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
I think it's well acknowledged that MABs achieve their upwind performance in strong winds by having low low volume and low free board. Both those factors make them submarines half the time.
In contrast AWBs have high freeboard and high volume so they stay drier but obviously lift over the waves which is why they're often called 'bouncy'. Of course all that freeboard means they're not as efficient into the wind in strong winds and big waves.
Then off the wind in big wind and waves the AWB has a wide arse and plenty of volume to promote early and stable surfing.
In the light stuff the AWB wins over the MAB on all points of sailing.
Is this controversial in some way? I thought these were just well known features of different boat designs.
More detail please!
sighmoon
Well-Known Member
I cut my cruising teeth on a friend's dad's old gaffer. She was slow, leaked a little, and I'm certainly glad I wasn't the one footing the bill. I don't think I'd ever own such a boat, but I can certainly see the appeal.
As with a classic car, there's no status anxiety, no boat next door which aimed to do the same thing but did it better.
The motion was sublime - standing up on deck in a chop was relatively easy. Crawling out on the bowsprit (in calm weather) was fun. She needed much more manpower than a modern boat, but if she didn't, I probably wouldn't have been invited along in the first place.
As with a classic car, there's no status anxiety, no boat next door which aimed to do the same thing but did it better.
The motion was sublime - standing up on deck in a chop was relatively easy. Crawling out on the bowsprit (in calm weather) was fun. She needed much more manpower than a modern boat, but if she didn't, I probably wouldn't have been invited along in the first place.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid it would seem like some have had some very bad experiences of sailing old boats. Certainly in light airs a modern boat should have the legs on a classic. But at the same time, many an AWB would be surprised at how slippery a MAB can be.
Water seldom makes it into the cockpit on classics. The lee deck might be half underwater but only when you're pushing things. I'd actually expect to stay drier in the cockpit of an old wooden boat. For one thing you're lower down, the cockpit will generally be deeper and there will be less spray coming over the bow.
Going upwind I think will always be more comfortable in a boat with a long keel and a bit of weight. AWB's will slam, and aren't very buoyant in the bows, so the sharp end tends to be a very wet place. A classic design will generally be light and buoyant in the ends so will lift to the waves far more readily making for a gentler motion, less spray and no slamming.
I've never sailed a classic that could be considered a submarine going upwind. If the classic is taking water over the bow, then an AWB will be taking far more, and having a far worst time of it.
My final point is indeed pointing. A modern boat will point higher. But not much more than 5 degrees, which isn't much unless you're racing. And when the wind starts getting stronger, modern AWB's start going sideways, where as your MAB will be going where she's pointed.
As a parting gesture I will say that generally old wooden boats are owned by a certain kind of gentleman.
And Gentlemen don't beat.
Water seldom makes it into the cockpit on classics. The lee deck might be half underwater but only when you're pushing things. I'd actually expect to stay drier in the cockpit of an old wooden boat. For one thing you're lower down, the cockpit will generally be deeper and there will be less spray coming over the bow.
Going upwind I think will always be more comfortable in a boat with a long keel and a bit of weight. AWB's will slam, and aren't very buoyant in the bows, so the sharp end tends to be a very wet place. A classic design will generally be light and buoyant in the ends so will lift to the waves far more readily making for a gentler motion, less spray and no slamming.
I've never sailed a classic that could be considered a submarine going upwind. If the classic is taking water over the bow, then an AWB will be taking far more, and having a far worst time of it.
My final point is indeed pointing. A modern boat will point higher. But not much more than 5 degrees, which isn't much unless you're racing. And when the wind starts getting stronger, modern AWB's start going sideways, where as your MAB will be going where she's pointed.
As a parting gesture I will say that generally old wooden boats are owned by a certain kind of gentleman.
And Gentlemen don't beat.
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
it all depends on what you like doing afloat. If you like sailing without an engine then a long keel with deep forefoot will stay on the wind almost to a standstill when you pick up a mooring - without the bow blowing off and no crabbing due to keel stall. Just let go the helm and she lies with the wind on the shoulder....oh bliss.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
I've been soaked by countless MABs, but one example that nobody will dispute: Contessa 32.
...and I haven't had any bad experiences of MAB's, they rock.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Certainly MAB's have had me wet to the underwear more times than I can count. But not once do I think I'd have been dryer on a modern boat in the same situation.
The only exception is being dunked whilst on the bowsprit.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
All road cars do more-or-less the same thing, and can therefore be fairly compared. Yachts do a huge range of things, depending on the owners' tastes, so it's no surprise that someone whose needs are best met by a modern plastic soapdish thinks that modern plastic soapdishes are best and someone whose needs are met by wooden icebergs prefers wooden icebergs.
And of course every combination - that's why I have a traditional looking boat made of plastic. For me it's the best design - but I wouldn't for an instant claim that it's best for anyone else.
On the other hand, my '76 Citroen DS is clearly miles better than anything built since.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's a fair representation of the terms of the debate. The disagreement is not "which design is best". People aren't stupid, everyone is well aware that every design is a compromise. The disagreement is whether or not one design (the design that's been overwhelmingly most common for 20 years or more) is actually structually dangerous.