sailing luddites

Thanks, I was really looking for the MAIB reports for those two specific incidents. Do you recall boat names or locations or even rough dates? I don't think I'm going to track them down without a little bit more detail, no matter how vague.

I think this is the MAIB report of the charter boat where 3 men were drowned in the Needles Channel (from Feb 21997)

23.Yacht founders in needles channel in severe gale - three killed

Narrative: A group of work colleagues chartered a seaworthy and well equipped yacht for five days coastal sailing on the south coast of England in February. Their experience varied but was adequate for what they planned.

They sailed from the Solent to Poole and had hoped to extend westwards to Weymouth but forecast bad weather led to a change of plan. After a period alongside in Poole, they prepared for there turn passage to the Solent. The forecast wind was south-west Force7 to 9. On leaving Poole fairway the Skipper reduced sail for the prevailing conditions and headed east with the intention of approaching the Solent via the Needles Channel which he knew well. No passage plan had been filed with the Coastguard.

It was a rough passage but the crew were confident they were in control until they confronted the first steep-sided seas at these award end of the Needles Channel. These were typical of those encountered in this area when either the west setting ebb tide meets strong south-westerly winds or, as in this case, heavy seas build up in the vicinity of the Shingles and the Bridge bank.

Because some difficulty was encountered in identifying their precise position, the Skipper altered course to the south as he feared he was too close to the Shingles. Moments later a particularly vicious sea capsized the yacht throwing all four crew over board. Three who were clipped on by safety harnesses managed to climb back aboard, but the Skipper, who had unclipped to go below to the chart table, was lost. A great deal of water had found its way below during the capsize through the open companionway and was over one metre deep in the cabin. One of the crew went below to make a MAYDAY call and during this time the yacht capsized again, this time being dis masted.

The two crew on deck were washed overboard, one being swept away, the other being trapped upside down with his head below the water. By the time he was found by the one survivor, he was dead. Only a fragment of the MAYDAY transmission was received. It is most likely that the radio had been damaged in the capsize and was only transmitting intermittently. The MAYDAY was received by HM Coastguard and by another vessel in the Solent but no position was received, just an urgent request as to whether anyone could hear the signal. For want of any further information and lack of
detail as to the origin or location of the vessel making the distress call, no search and rescue operation was mounted.

The yacht was eventually washed up on an Isle of Wight beach with the one survivor on board. The three remaining members of the crew were recovered but all had been killed through drowning or hypothermia.

The Lessons:

1.Winter sailing with gales forecast demands a high degree of responsibility by Skippers. The yacht on this occasion was well found. The experience of the crew appeared adequate for the conditions and the Skipper had demonstrated sound judgement by abandoning an ambitious plan to sail further westwards.

2.In accordance with the MSA Code of Practice for Small Commercial Sailing Vessels, yacht charter firms are strongly advised to give appropriate guidance to charterers on the use of the craft, bearing in mind the declared experience of the Skipper and crew, their knowledge of the boat and the weather forecast.

3.No matter how short the passage, proper planning is essential. Given wind forecasts of Force 7 to 9 the Skipper had the choice of remaining in Poole, taking the long route to his eventual destination by sailing south of the Isle of Wight, or making for the Solent via either the Needles Channel or the North Channel.

4.The indications are that because the tide was flooding, i.e., setting north-east and with the wind, the Skipper decided that the Needles Channel option was a safe choice. The choice of which passage to adopt must always be the Skipper's but the responsibility must be taken after very careful consideration of the dangers and, if lacking in local knowledge, having taken the advice of others. In this instance the Skipper, having taken the decision to proceed to sea, appeared unaware of the grave dangers associated with entering the Needles Channel in strong SSW winds, and
especially in the early stages of the flood.

5.In bad weather conditions safety harnesses should be attached to properly tested securing points at all times, and when fitted, the crotch strap of life-jackets must be correctly fastened.

6.Conventional foul weather clothing offers little protection from winter water temperatures (in this case 6 - 8°C) and in breaking seas once the body is fully immersed. Survival times are measured in minutes.

7.One set of flares for emergency use must be kept readily available and separate from the main supply. It is recommended that the ready-to-use set is placed under cover and easily accessible by the companionway.

8.Yachtsmen are encouraged to report their passage plans to HM Coastguard especially in winter when bad weather is forecast.

9. Retroflective tape on liferafts, life-jackets and foul weather clothing stands a very good chance of being sighted at night when it is picked up by searchlight beams such as those used on RNLI lifeboats.

10.Publishers of sailing directions which offer advice on using the Needles Channel should highlight the dangers of breaking seas in the vicinity of the SW Shingles and the Bridge bank especially in strong winds from the south round to west. The swell in such conditions tends to build up once the west-setting ebb has stopped. Around low water the seas at the seaward end of the Needles Channel can be particularly vicious.

11Publishers of charts specifically designed for the small boat user should draw attention to potential dangers in high sea states. Areas for special consideration are sandbars at the entrances to harbours.

12.Despite having to sail close to a lee shore, the North Channel offers a viable and usually safer alternative to the Needles Channel when entering and leaving the Solent in adverse weather conditions even when the tide is favourable.

Acknowledgement to Hampshire Police and HM Coroner, Isle of Wight
 
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oopps

Well all I can say is that recently we crossed Biscay in up to 47kts of wind in our AWB, the design of the boat is such that we sunk four times, had so much water in the cockpit we put on our scuba gear and the slamming meant we had to keep reglassing the baulkheads every 10 mins, and we stowed the keel on deck in case we lost it.

No the reality is that there was so much reserve bouyancy the bow hardly got wet, at no time was there ANY water in the cockpit and even when we were tired and not getting the angle just right down the face of the waves the boat did not trip over its keel but kept its poise and not even the side decks went under. The biggest issue was the noise of the water rushing by, this meant that sleep was difficult. I have the utmost confidence that modern designs are IMHO (having sailed them all) far superior in heavy weather, but then we bought an Ocean capable (not merely CAT A) boat and it shows.
 
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Biscay one was the 'Ocean Madam'. She was a Beneteau 390 that capsized and failed to right with the loss of one life. The incident occurred during a crossing of Biscay on 8 October 1997

MAIB Report

Conclusion no. 3.1.3 was:
"The Oceanis 390 is a safe, comfortable, yacht suitable for pleasure sailing and charter work. Her lightweight design, however, together with her stability characteristics, introduce a high risk factor in the type of extreme sea-state conditions encountered by Ocean Madam. The yacht is not designed for crossing oceans in bad weather."

- W

Not quite correct because the boat was first knocked down and then later more badly and rolled, losing her mast but she did right. This is a good example that it is not wind that rolls boats it is waves. The Fastnet 1979 aftermath specialist studies showed clearly that ANY boat can be rolled by the 'right' wave and that no type or design escapes that. Indeed Creightons Naturally (Swan 65??) mentioned elsewhere in this thread was also knocked down or rolled in Biscay and this was a recognised well known design and RTW racer in the days before the extreme designs.

Personally I felt the report was as expected but the boat itself was blamed rather more than it should have been.
 
how many people use a Morgan as day to day transport?
Step forward Roger Mallinson of Troutbeck Bridge, Windermere.

Perhaps an even greater bargain, with hindsight, was the 1931 vintage Austin Seven car which Roger bought in October 1958, on the 2nd of June 2006 the lovely old car had its 75th birthday. It is still going strong and in the summer of 2006 faultlessly conveyed both him and Whappet on a two week camping trip, travelling 1131 miles around the Scottish Highlands. He paid the princely sum of £25 for the vehicle but recalls a certain disappointment when finding out later that he could have bought an alternative example for only £5!

Rogers two seat Austin Seven is a very rare ‘boat tail’ style model of a range first introduced in 1922 and some 290,000 examples were built by the time production ceased in 1939.

Roger uses this open car every day. Whappet is a bloody great alsation that sits in the passenger seat and looks over the windscreen.
(When it's really nasty weather or he is carrying stuff he has a Mini van which is 29 years old.)
 
Not quite correct because the boat was first knocked down and then later more badly and rolled, losing her mast but she did right.

Yes, she righted eventually - but far from immediately, as a couple of quotes from the report show:

The skipper was trapped under the inverted cockpit and managed to hold his breath for several seconds in the expectation that the boat would right itself. When it failed to do so, he unclipped his harness and managed to escape aft. Once clear, and with his head above water, he grabbed the transom-mounted boarding ladder. He saw the propeller running out of control for a few moments before it stopped. After an undetermined number of seconds upside down, the yacht righted herself allowing the skipper to climb back on board.

Before sailing from La Coruna he had calculated there was at least a possibility they might be knocked down and had briefed his crew on the actions they should take should this unlikely event occur. 'They were told to remain clipped on in the confident expectation that the yacht would right itself almost immediately. Such confidence was misplaced.

The problem may not have been the GZ curve / righting moment so much as the relatively high inverted stability. The shape of the area under the curve can be more important than the actual angle of vanishing stability. Modern hull shapes have a lot of form stability inverted compared to older hull designs, therefore they are likely to take longer to right in the event of a total inversion.

- W
 
Yes, she righted eventually - but far from immediately, as a couple of quotes from the report show:





The problem may not have been the GZ curve / righting moment so much as the relatively high inverted stability. The shape of the area under the curve can be more important than the actual angle of vanishing stability. Modern hull shapes have a lot of form stability inverted compared to older hull designs, therefore they are likely to take longer to right in the event of a total inversion.

- W

Agreed but any design can be rolled when it meets the wrong wave. Inverted stability is often mitigated by coachroof area (the 390 has plenty of that) and by comparison lots of semi flush decked boats like some older HRs do not.

Personally I think a lot of this one was down to human error, before and after departure. Biscay in October in a force 9 is not a good place to be, especially by choice, no matter what the boat!
 
Currently i got one of each (plastic & wood). My boat's best - no MY boats best ... Actually they're both ***** but give me & family hours of fun. Would I have bigger/posher/faster/newer.

Nop, I can't afford/handle it. I would enjoy my time less as I would know I was spending too much cash on each hours fun.

* - relative to a better boat. There's always a better boat....
 
Currently i got one of each (plastic & wood). My boat's best - no MY boats best ... Actually they're both ***** but give me & family hours of fun. Would I have bigger/posher/faster/newer.

Nop, I can't afford/handle it. I would enjoy my time less as I would know I was spending too much cash on each hours fun.

* - relative to a better boat. There's always a better boat....
 
Brought on by the long keel thread, it's always puzzled me why there are so many luddites in yachting.Car enthusiasts may like an old classic car but rarely in my experience do they believe the old car is better than the cars made today. Same thing applies in motorbikes, and indeed in every other hobby I can think of bar antique collection.

Yet a fair proportion of sailors seem to believe stongly that old long keel narrow gutted heavy old gaff rigged boats are way better than what is made these days. Single handed sailors whizz round the world in high tech tea trays yet many yotties believe that anything more modern than the mid 50s is unsafe new fangled rubbish. And yet most of them do no more than an occasional cross channel jaunt.

OK I'm exagerrating a bit but you get the idea. Why is it that sailing has so many luddites?

Probably because they're wary of the modern characterless fiber glass boats with their dodgy keels built like overblown dinghy's.They have about as much charm as a Somerfield sausage.
 
"Yet a fair proportion of sailors seem to believe stongly that old long keel narrow gutted heavy old gaff rigged boats are way better than what is made these days. Single handed sailors whizz round the world in high tech tea trays yet many yotties believe that anything more modern than the mid 50s is unsafe new fangled rubbish. And yet most of them do no more than an occasional cross channel jaunt."


Single handed sailors going for speed records with huge shore side support teams do, but also recently we've seen a flurry of circumnavigations and trans oceans in boats such as contessa 32 , S&S 34 and Rival 36.
Why, because you can get a tough seaworthy craft for a reasonable amount of money.
There are plenty of great ocean going boats being built today,(sweden yachts - particularly like their 41, Malo, Oyster, Rustler, etc) but their cost is prohibitive for many.
Of course there are also older designs that sail like a box, but with older designs there is a wealth of track record information to find out if a boat is suitable for the sort of sailing you intend doing and for most, they present a wider variety of types of performance to choose from within a more modest budget.

I also think most AWB's will get through bad weather, but for me it's about ride quality. Having done bad weather in both types, we had to work harder and were bounced around and more fatigued in the AWB's than in the older designs.
Also, most of the AWB's I've been on sacrifice proper stowage for maximum accommodation space. Great for marina hopping and weekending but not so desirable for long passage making.

At the end of the day you have to decide what sort of sailing you want to be able to do, and then go looking for something within your budget that will do he job.

Personally, I could never have hoped to be able to own a boat of such quality and performance as I have if I had been looking to buy something new or just a few years old.
 
But why the comparison to cars and bikes? For most of us our boat is our home away from home. On that basis, what is your favorite home? A modern box on an estate or a charming cottage overlooking your favorite piece of water?
Maybe, the ideal is a modern (water proof and efficient) boat to a traditional design that is prooven to perform, with a few extra luxuries.

It is possible to have the better halves of both worlds - a easy-care GRP hull molded from a traditional clinker-built wooden hull, but with mast, gaff and other bits of good solid wood, with modern sails duplicating tannin-preserved calico. Hardly an outing goes by without a stranger telling me how pretty my boat looks......
 
My only experience of an AWB has left me less than impressed. A lot of it is down to the little details where style has trumped over substance. For example, the curved seating which looks great in a brochure but is a pain to try and use as a bunk. Or the daft handholds in the headlining which you can only cup your fingertips into- fine for rock-climbers I suppose, not for most people. And the cockpit was high above the water and very shallow, to accomodate the huge aft cabin beneath; the cockpit was also very wide and made of smooth moulded curves offering no chance of bracing or support. With any kind of lively sea, you seem to end up slithering around a lot- impossible to just wedge yourself in anywhere. Operating the sheet winch meant kneeling on a smooth moulded surface so that you end up sliding fore and aft whilst your hands are busy with the winch handle.
No, not a fan. I'll stick to my 40yr old boat, thank you very much.
 
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