Sailing in F5/6

[DoubleEnder]

I just did a little trip on a friend’s boat. A short beat then a beam reach then a broad reach starting with about 20kts built to steady 25/26. About 40 miles. Two reefs at one point.
The boat is old style heavy long keel. It was fine, went fast and was comfortable in short choppy sea (shallow water and strong tide). Pretty dry on deck most of the time.
My own boat is also long keel but much older (1930s design) built of wood with low freeboard and narrow beam. We would have been very very wet in the same conditions.
I am curious to know what these conditions would be like in a very modern design with wide beam, chine hull, lots of form stability and more volume.
It’s a genuine question, I’m not interested in old versus new heavy versus light all that argy bargy. Not which is ‘better.’ Just really what’s it like to sail one of those style of boats, in that sort of weather, in cruising mode? Is it fast and fun or bouncy and bangy? We were pitching and rolling a fair bit but that was expected and the motion was generally not abrupt….I have sailed on more modern boats but not in those conditions.
Clearly these modern designs can cope, but what’s the experience like for a middle aged (ahem) sailor not a racer?

 

[jwilson]

To windward in any wind/sea many (not all) modern production boats slam quite badly. My 2005 Jeanneau certainly does, have done a long beat in 35 knots, and the slamming was pretty unpleasant. By then we were getting lots of spray and some lumps of water on deck. Offwind you reef the main more than you think you'll need and use plenty of genoa, and she is fast and fairly dry. Non-chined hull though.

 

[fredrussell]

…I’m not interested in old versus new heavy versus light all that argy bargy…

Good luck with that! Here we go again then…

 

[shortjohnsilver]

My Beneteau 36cc behaves similar to jwilson in a short choppy - wind over tide situation, - when beating to windward, but in deeper waters where the waves are longer, less so. Free her off the wind onto a reach and she’s off.

 

[Daydream believer]

My Hanse 311 does not slam much & is surprisingly dry to windward. I do not have, nor want/need a spray hood. In flattish water or a long sea she will clock 6.5 kts to windward, through the water, if my son is helming & point as high as most boats. I rarely get out pointed.
On a reach she is not much faster, as I do not have a genoa, only using the self tacking jib. Down wind I furl it fully
However, motoring into short 1 metre chop such as one gets in the Thames estuary & it slams hoplessly. The same motoring typically between Boulogne & Cap GrizNez in wind against tide conditions, when over 25kts wind & there the seas get to 1.5 M possibly more.
My 2003 Hanse is exceptionally dry, except in very heavy weather broad reaching in breaking seas. I have surfed across the Dover Strait & touched11kts on a broad reach in short bursts. Several times, with 2 reefs in the main & water just streamed over the side. That was in 30+ kts & very rare. I once surfed approaching Boulogne, such that the rotating prop bump started the engine, when I knocked it into gear with my knee.

 

[dune16]

If only motoring into wind my Dufour 430 slams terribly, to the point I have to slow right down for fear of breaking something. With the sails up however she flies along nice and smoothly, settles on her chine.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I once surfed approaching Boulogne, such that the rotating prop bump started the engine, when I knocked it into gear with my knee.

I have never heard that before but I can understand how it could happen.

 

[dunedin]

………….. A short beat then a beam reach then a broad reach starting with about 20kts built to steady 25/26. About 40 miles………….

My own boat is also long keel but much older (1930s design) built of wood with low freeboard and narrow beam. We would have been very very wet in the same conditions.

I am curious to know what these conditions would be like in a very modern design with wide beam, chine hull, lots of form stability and more volume.

I suspect most modern boats would have revelled in these conditions - particularly in the downwind sections where might have romped along fast and dry, enjoying a nice relax.
Clearly any boat with decent sail area would want to be reefed in 25-26 knots upwind or a close reach (any boat not reefing them is simply under-canvassed for light winds). But most modern boats 2 reefs can be done in the dry from the cockpit.

The short beat would likely be more variable. The best modern boats would romp upwind with blade jib and 2 reefs, massively drier than it sounds like your boat is, due to increased freeboard. But undoubtedly some less well designed modern boats do get a bit bouncy upwind in waves - in the same way that some less well designed older boats could hardly make any progress upwind In any weather. So as ever, it pays to choose carefully and get a boat known to be a good sailing boat, not a sailing pig. The old style 150% genoas often were particularly ineffective part reefed, creating a bag which just caused heeling and drag - whereas modern blade jib with foam luff much better. (Not that a high quality laminate sail can’t be made to work with large genoa, if prepared to invest in quality)
And most boats slam less sailing to windward, when presents more of a V shape and the sails damp the motion, than when motoring - which makes it a shame that so many seem to motor directly upwind, crashing and banging.

 

[dunedin]

I once surfed approaching Boulogne, such that the rotating prop bump started the engine, when I knocked it into gear with my knee.

You need to get a folding prop ASAP.

 

[Tranona]

The generalities have been captured well. Off the wind my Bavaria loves it, but needs reefing, mostly the mainsail because that is the larger sail - the jib is 106% - but that sets well when reefed as you only need a couple of rolls. I have in mast which makes adjusting sail area to match conditions easier because you are not limited to fixed area reefs - although its effectiveness is not as good. Just ordered a new main in Vectron which I hope will improve that. Going upwind above 16-20 knots with any sea is hard work and best avoided, but in flat water OK. Does not slam as much as its predecessor an older style Bav37.

 

[johnalison]

My boat is an HR 34, which is a design from the '90s, and so intermediate in style. It has a deeper forefoot than some boats of that time and since, and slamming is not really a problem, but the question of sailing to windward is more a matter of sea state than the wind speed itself. We can have a great time sailing to windward in F5-6 but I would not choose to do a passage of any length in the open sea in these conditions. On one occasion, when crossing the Celtic sea, the forecast SW 4-5 turned out to be a NW 6. Fortunately, this only lasted about five hours but it was decidedly uncomfortable and we had to motor to make up for the 15 degrees of course we couldn't do, though I think we could have in quieter seas.

Many of the best sails I have had have been in sustained F6s, reaching or broad-reaching, even if my wife wouldn't agree. Channel and southern North Sea sailing in these conditions is straightforward, even if I have to accede to my wife's entreaties and put in a reef. What you have to look out for is the increased risk from the livelier motion and higher loads on the lines.

 

[dune16]

Going upwind above 16-20 knots with any sea is hard work and best avoided, but in flat water OK. Does not slam as much as its predecessor an older style Bav37.

Couldn't agree more with this. Our last trip I got caught out overnight with the weather. 25- 28 knots directly on the nose. Didn't have sails up but motoring and minimising slamming meant about 1knot sog. Had to bear away for hours until things calmed. Added about 5 hours to our normal 8 hour crossing. My girlfriend was not impressed for her first experience of being out on the boat at night ?

 

[DoubleEnder]

Going upwind above 16-20 knots with any sea is hard work and best avoided, but in flat water OK. Does not slam as much as its predecessor an older style Bav37.

Thank you, that’s the sort of situation that I’m interested in, I think. May I ask, does your boat have a chined hull shape? I know that some of the newer designs have quite significant chines.
My boat goes well to weather even in a confused sea. She is very slender and has a deep fine entry, as well as being fairly heavy. So she punches up to windward at the expense of being very wet indeed. My friend’s boat is a Nicholson 32 and went pretty well to windward in the fresh breeze and disturbed sea. I think maybe the weight is helpful in these conditions but I don’t know enough about more modern designs. I assume they work! Pogo , JPK etc…but I’m curious about the actual experience

 

[johnalison]

Couldn't agree more with this. Our last trip I got caught out overnight with the weather. 25- 28 knots directly on the nose. Didn't have sails up but motoring and minimising slamming meant about 1knot sog. Had to bear away for hours until things calmed. Added about 5 hours to our normal 8 hour crossing. My girlfriend was not impressed for her first experience of being out on the boat at night ?

Your 1 knot SOG is a refreshingly rare example of speed honesty among sailors. I have measured a VMG of 4-4.5 knots when sailing in flat water but I know perfectly well that I won’t achieve this in open sea conditions. Even when motoring in sheltered waters in Denmark I have struggled to motor at much more than 5kn and as for sailing back from Ostend to Essex against a NW 5, this could take 36 hours or more. Those who claim to have done such passages with the wind ‘on the nose’ have done it in one tack with the right slant. My general rule is that all passages take longer than planned.

 

[LittleSister]

My Beneteau 36cc behaves similar to jwilson in a short choppy - wind over tide situation, - when beating to windward, but in deeper waters where the waves are longer, less so. Free her off the wind onto a reach and she’s off.

I'm not convinced that depth is necessarily or always the solution. I sailed Azores to Portugal (i.e. well off the continental shelf and with vast depths) in an AWB (Jeanneau c38ft IIRC) in F3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8, and that slammed liked hell for days on end. I really began to worry whether the hull (let alone my nerves) could take the continual hammering.

I say that not to knock AWBs (which have many virtues), or suggest that they're all as bad as that in terms of slamming.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you, that’s the sort of situation that I’m interested in, I think. May I ask, does your boat have a chined hull shape? I know that some of the newer designs have quite significant chines.
My boat goes well to weather even in a confused sea. She is very slender and has a deep fine entry, as well as being fairly heavy. So she punches up to windward at the expense of being very wet indeed. My friend’s boat is a Nicholson 32 and went pretty well to windward in the fresh breeze and disturbed sea. I think maybe the weight is helpful in these conditions but I don’t know enough about more modern designs. I assume they work! Pogo , JPK etc…but I’m curious about the actual experience

No chines, just a wide stern, beam carried well forward and sharp stem. Not helped in the windward stakes by having the shallow bulbed keel rather than the deep high aspect standard keel - my choice for where I sail.

The latest chined hulls aim to solve a range of issues, mainly allowing a narrower waterline beam and wider above the water to increase interior volume forward and aft to clean waterflow and provide a more balanced waterline plane when heeled. How this works in practice I don't know, although the reviews (perhaps as they always do) are complementary.

What you can't avoid though is the fact that the hull form of the Nic 32 and similar boats was developed to cope with sailing conditions where good windward performance ( not necessarily fast) in a seaway was key to successful cruising and racing. Just read the accounts of passage racing in the 50's and 60s, particularly around the UK and you will appreciate why. Today's designs have different objectives with greater emphasis on offwind performance in light airs and greater volume for a given length. Explains in part why Nic 32s make poor Med cruisers and many AWBs display their limitations bashing around our coasts. This divergence in design principles seems to be increasing as boat buyers in harsher environments form an ever smaller proportion of the worldwide market.

You can see this with Bavaria. 20 years ago their range covered 30-50' with designs that were a reasonable compromise between the traditional cruiser and the warm weather light wind market. Now their range has shrunk and all the development is in the 40'- 65' what I call "Holiday" boats. When I bought my boat in 2015, the choice was very limited under 35' simple cruisers compared with 2000 when I bought my previous boat. Now it is even more limited.

These generalisations need to be considered with some care. There are many modern designs, particularly from the higher end of the market that do manage to combine good windward performance with many of the characteristics of the mass produced volume orientated boats - but arguably their main market is not the mass warm weather market!

The lightweight flyers such as the Pogo are very different. They are for very active sailors who enjoy extracting the most out of the boat as opposed to many cruising sailors who perhaps value ease and predictability more. Things like being able to hold a course with little input, heave to if necessary, easy on autopliot of windvane steering are more important than the ability to get on the plane!

 

[LadyInBed]

From Summer Cruise to Brittany 2012 : Monty Mariner
No slamming, the boat behaved like the Lady she is!

"Wed 5 Sep.

06:30 start for St Peter Port, 46Nm as the crow fly’s but unfortunately that direction was straight into a strong NE wind. It was blowing F6 gusting F7 so put two reefs in the main and only unrolled half the genoa and settled down to a long beat to windward. The wind dropped to F5 in the afternoon then down to F3 after dark, at that point (22:10) I started motoring. What with tacking and working the current I ended up doing 95.3nM, I had realised I would miss the slot to go up the Little Russel, so made for the North of Guernsey, I ended up having a 2 – 3 knot adverse current when I was going across the North of Guernsey and no wind before turning at 04:00 and picking up the current going down the Little Russel, anchored in Havelet Bay at 05:10 – 23hrs40 totally knackered. They reckon that you should work on a figure of 100Nm a day when on passage, so that sounds about right."

 

[Laminar Flow]

The German magazine "Die Yacht" did a comparison test of 3 different types in adverse conditions, i.e. 20+kts in the short steep seas (1.5m) of the Flensburger Fjorde, Baltic. The boats tested were a Vindo 40 (1971) a Halberg 29 (1981) and a Sun Odyssee 30 (2009).

The video on youtube is called: In der Welle, Kurzkiel gegen Langkiel. All depends on how good your German is, but a quick synopsis : essentially both the Haberg and the Vindo were considerably better than the Sun Odyssee in comfort, handling and speed in the short Baltic chop and on all points of sail, including reaching and downwind (when one would have expected the Odyssee to excel). The Halberg was by some margin the best of the lot. The complaints about the Sun Odyssee as a representative of a beamy, flat bottom, high freeboard and wide beam aft modern type were its tendency to slam going to weather, the relatively poor and tiring steering that required constant attention, inadequate support in the wide cockpit and generally poor handling under these conditions with a tendency to broach.

The results tend to correlate with my own experiences with the different types. The tendency to pound has a lot more to do with a vessel's water plane loading than with the age of a particular design. Wide beam and light displacement are disadvantageous in this respect. Heavier boats have by their very nature a deeper forefoot with steeper angles and of course a higher water plane loading with greater inertia which all help to reduce pounding.

 

[Daydream believer]

Your 1 knot SOG is a refreshingly rare example of speed honesty among sailors. I have measured a VMG of 4-4.5 knots when sailing in flat water but I know perfectly well that I won’t achieve this in open sea conditions. Even when motoring in sheltered waters in Denmark I have struggled to motor at much more than 5kn and as for sailing back from Ostend to Essex against a NW 5, this could take 36 hours or more. Those who claim to have done such passages with the wind ‘on the nose’ have done it in one tack with the right slant. My general rule is that all passages take longer than planned.

Ostend/Burnham--I have never taken longer than 30 hours ( day of the Queen's silver jubilee 1977)& that was in my Stella, having been hove too by the tail of the falls for 4.5 hours. I have done the trip many times. In my current boat Ostend/Bradwell I cannot recall having taken more than 18.5 hours & some of those 100 crossings have been with head winds. In which case one alters one's route a bit to work the tack & tide or goes into Harwich, if windy, to avoid a beat up the Wallet, if missing the tide to get into Bradwell. Generally winds are SW, of course. East if I am lucky coming home, but sods law often has given me some NW for the return.

 

[Yealm]

I guess I must be one of the few who have had both a contessa 32 and a pogo 2.

All the stereotypes totally true - contessa virtually never slams (but no faster in bad chop than the pogo).
Pogo slams badly upwind but blisteringly fast as soon as you drop away on the angles. And awful for accommodation

The only option is to own several boats to cope with all situations !