Sail wardrobe expansion - cruising chute or 'better' genoa.

[samfieldhouse]

My opinion... Tackle the genoa first. Downsize it slightly and upspec the cloth and add a foam (or equivalent) luff. You'll transform the performance of the boat in the most rewarding conditions.

However..... The reduction in genoa area will slightly compound your downwind issues. I note that I "contributed" to the threads you linked, and I don't think anything has really changed in my opinions, and I'm generally in large favour of having a kite of some sort. In your place, if budget is an issue, I'd spend the cash on a really good genoa and then scour ebay etc for a cruising chute that is a reasonably close match.

From a cruising point of view, the difference you will get from having a brand new, made to fit, chute compared to a second hand "somewhere close" one is small. The difference between an older genoa and a new one is not small.

Indeed, I wondered if this may be the logical way forward, it seems sensible.

 

[dunedin]

I would suggest you get a better genoa, with foam luff to aid reefing.
This will benefit you 100% of the time you are sailing, and potentially get you off a lee shore due to better shape.
A cruising asymmetric will only benefit you in very specific wind range & direction, and if have manpower and willpower to set. So perhaps benefit 1% of sailing time.
Plus an asymmetric helps a lot on boats with narrow blade jibs. Not a huge benefit over a 150% genoa.
Finally, downwind I suspect you will go pretty much the same speed jnder genoa only with no mainsail, a lovely safe and low effort way to sail downwind.

 

[Tranona]

Your conclusion seems to be based on different information to the YM tests. It can be seen very clearly that the gap between fixed 3 blade and spinning 3 blade speed is significant and the further gain from spinning 3 blade to folding/feathering is marginal so of interest to racers looking for that tiny advantage but not so much for cruisers. The spped versus power graph surely is the one to look at for the relatively fixed power of whatever sails you have up.

No, the permanent reduction in drag means you need less power for a given speed and for a given amount of power you go faster - hence the improvements in passage times. My conclusions are based on 25 years of involvement with folding and feathering propellers and the hundreds of people (like Sandy) who report significant improvements in speed under sail because of the reduction in drag.

However as others have pointed out this is not relevant to this thread as the OP is interested in sails only.

 

[seumask]

Get a good 130% Genoa. In windy weather we often pole out our 130% and can keep it poled out until the wind is around 45' aft of the beam. The closer to the beam it gets means a little of the Genoa will need furling to keep the sail forward enough to stop it back winding.
If it is wavy then a preventer on the main and a guy/ downhaul on the pole is advised especially in stronger winds.
We find you can nearly completely furl the Genoa with the pole on it and that's the reverse of setting it up, which is much quicker than the spinnaker. Inlight winds my usual choice is the spinnaker, no sock on both our old 32 ft and now 37ft. Dropping into the companion way from behind the main close to a run. Had socks in the past but find them quite a faff and worry about the snuffing lines getting tangled.
IMHO if you have got a pole a spinnaker is much more useful with a much wider range of wind angles available than a cruising chute and nearly the same faff to set up and deploy. I can do this single handed with the pilot steering but it is a lot easier with 2 or 3 or you!

 

[RupertW]

No, the permanent reduction in drag means you need less power for a given speed and for a given amount of power you go faster - hence the improvements in passage times. My conclusions are based on 25 years of involvement with folding and feathering propellers and the hundreds of people (like Sandy) who report significant improvements in speed under sail because of the reduction in drag.

However as others have pointed out this is not relevant to this thread as the OP is interested in sails only.

You can’t read what you have just stated from the speed/power graph except for a very minor improvement but without other test results to discuss I agree we won’t get any further especially by anecdotal passage time info.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I find my new 150% genoa furls pretty well. Fairly heavy canvas and a foam luff. It does not set quite as well to windward as I would like but the style of boat and positioning of rigging counts against that anyway.

I am still pondering a cruising chute but at my advanced age I increasingly am wary of fore deck work, and really poling it out is whats needed to get the best results. Maybe if I was making long ocean passages it would be a certain benefit but the fickle winds of western channel and irish sea can give rise to a lot of tacking, frigging around with the sheets and such palaver. For the moment I just maintain about 15 degrees off downwind

 

[dansaskip]

The other issue with the genoa is it doesn't really reef, at about 60% the shape is lost so close hauled above about 23kts of wind its just baggy. I understand that a furling headsail is always a compromise, but would a 'better' investment be a smaller/flatter/more modern genoa?

You have said it yourself !
and I agree with what other have said here - get a new Genoa. Whether it is smaller or not well, personally I would go a little smaller again as others suggest.

 

[Tranona]

Oh gosh, let’s not turn this into another lock vs spin vs feather discussion!

For what it’s worth, I quite enjoy the significant prop walk from my 3 bladed prop - it basically negates the need for a stern thruster… as long as I’m going to port!

I really don’t want to go down the prop discussion thread, but I imagine hull design surely impacts the prop drag?
If you have a sail drive on a modern ‘v-bomber’ style Hanse/Jeanneau/Beneteau/Dufour with a flat-ish bottom, spade rudders and the beam carried a long way aft, a fixed prop is going to be very much in the stream of clean water and causing drag.

But…
I have a lot of hull beneath the waterline, about 40% of her draft is hull. The keel is encapsulated, thick and the prop is very much in its wake - with less than 2” between the prop and the skeg; it’s quite tucked away. Having said that, it does start to spin almost as soon as the engine stops - but I’d have thought that in such a disrupted flow of water the prop’s drag is a lower percentage of the overall drag?

Some really helpful and insightful comments and tips - thank you.

So what about sniffers and launch bags? Sniggers seem to be something else that people are quite encamped about!

Dealing with the snuffer question first. Single handed you can't beat a top down furler which is what I had on my Bavaria and was able to handle a 65sqm chute from behind the wheel - but of course it was a custom set-up and the gear cost more than the sail (which was designed by Owain Peters of Kemps). Although that was fractional rig with almost equal size headsail and main (furling main!) and once the wind was aft of the beam the jib lost drive being blanketed by the main. The chute was designed to work between 80-150 degrees in winds below 12 knots. I sail the same waters as you - Solent-Weymouth based in Poole and in reality the number of times I could use it in the 3 years I had it was limited, but very enjoyable!.

Like others I concentrated first on improving the working sails (already had a folding prop!) but different issues from your genoa driven plan. Recutting the jib such that it did not need reefing below 20 knots and reshaping the main to make it flatter, finally replacing it with a new one made out of Vectran. In terms of cost effectiveness, or value for money improving the working sails was best. The new main was 2/3 the cost of the chute and gear.

With regard to drag, it is boats like yours that benefit most from drag reduction and 3 bladed prop behind a skeg is the very worst!. I am refitting an old long keel boat and the first thing to do is get rid of the 3 fixed blade prop and replace with a 3 blade feathering which will improve both sailing and motoring performance. It is a big investment, priced somewhere between a basic and Vectran mainsail, but as I tried to point out earlier unlike sails where the benefit is variable, dependent on how well you use them, when you can use them and over their life, the speed enhancement from drag reduction is constant and permanent.

 

[samfieldhouse]

Like others I concentrated first on improving the working sails (already had a folding prop!) but different issues from your genoa driven plan. Recutting the jib such that it did not need reefing below 20 knots and reshaping the main to make it flatter, finally replacing it with a new one made out of Vectran. In terms of cost effectiveness, or value for money improving the working sails was best. The new main was 2/3 the cost of the chute and gear.

With regard to drag, it is boats like yours that benefit most from drag reduction and 3 bladed prop behind a skeg is the very worst!. I am refitting an old long keel boat and the first thing to do is get rid of the 3 fixed blade prop and replace with a 3 blade feathering which will improve both sailing and motoring performance. It is a big investment, priced somewhere between a basic and Vectran mainsail, but as I tried to point out earlier unlike sails where the benefit is variable, dependent on how well you use them, when you can use them and over their life, the speed enhancement from drag reduction is constant and permanent.

Sage advice, thank you. I have considered a folding prop but have been perturbed by the cost. I'll continue to research.

 

[Tranona]

You may well find you do not have enough room for a folding propeller. The options open do also depend on what engine and reduction you have. They did not think much about efficient motoring performance in those days and boats were generally underpowered and the shape of the aft end of the boat made it difficult to locate the prop where there is decent clearance to use a larger diameter 2 bladed prop. As often said, boats are a compromise and you have to work with what you have.

 

[Sandy]

That is extraordinary and very different to the YM tests but glad it worked.

I was delighted. Seeing my average sailing speed climb from 4.5 knots to 5.5 knots and my maximum STW go from 6 to 7 knots was a game changer. As I said the biggest benefit was not having the prop 'whirr' at 4.8 knots STW as it was driving me insane.

 

[doug748]

I would:

1) Up speck the genoa
2) Ship some sort of pole. A custom, adjustable, carbon item would be great...... but a battered, alloy spinnaker job ?Ebay would work.
3) Rig preventers port and starboard - always ready and simple to deploy.

This will give you an easy, convenient and safe downwind rig. Plus you are partway to the fitting a dedicated downwind sail, as and when.

.

 

[Halo]

Personally i find that a spinning prop spoils much of the pure joy of sailing. I would rather lock the prop and go slower than let in trundle around and go faster. If you have the readies for a folder jfdi.

 

[samfieldhouse]

Personally i find that a spinning prop spoils much of the pure joy of sailing. I would rather lock the prop and go slower than let in trundle around and go faster. If you have the readies for a folder jfdi.

This is exactly what I do.

After discussion in our owners club we’ve come to the conclusion there isn’t enough space for a folding prop.

 

[Tranona]

There is room for a feathering prop which would be the right way to go if you want to spend that kind of money. A 3 blade featherer gives you the best of both worlds - good use of engine power for motoring performance and close to zero drag when sailing.

 

[samfieldhouse]

An update following lengthy Boatshow chats, measurements and budget forecasting…

On props; a folding prop simply won’t fit, not without significant modifications to either the skeg or the hull. A feathering prop may fit but Darglow said they’d want to have it measured properly to be sure. Plus the price is prohibitive, especially in light of speed not being my sole aim.

On genoas; There is life in my genoa. Plus the boat was designed to carry a 150% #1 foresail so, following various discussions, reducing it to less than 130% would really start to impact her performance.
Obviously, furling foresails are a compromise so the real solution here is to carry an actual jib for stronger winds… which rather defeats the purpose of having roller furling in the short run.

So… I’ll get a cruising chute. Primarily because it will (or won’t be!) fun and something different and in terms of cost:fun ratio it rates the highest.

In the future, when my genoa reaches end of life, I can revisit smaller/flatter foresails, and I’ll still have a cruising chute.

I’ve really enjoyed the chatter, debate and advice, thank you you for taking the time to give me your input!

 

[Daydream believer]

One problem with an asymetric sail that has not been mentioned is that it is more difficult to carry down wind. Usually one carries it on more of a reach whilst tacking down wind. Of course this depends on the cut of the sail. Some have a large roach in the luff to help set down wind, but it is less stable because the foot has to be flown higher & free. This is almost impossible in a confused sea in a smaller boat. Some are cut with less of a roach & are carried on more of a reach down wind. There is a technique to flying these whereby the helm & crew often have to work together. The helm bearing off as the crew play the tack to get the sail out to windward.

This is where the problem arises.

Mine can be goosewinged in very light airs,(<6kts) if I have a crew to fiddle with it. But single handed I need to fill it & do not have enough hands to play it. I had it cut with a slightly less roach than standard, for stability. It does mean I can get a closer reach with it in very light airs. As the wind gets up it has a similar effect to a reaching spinnaker. It very soon overpowers the boat & a broach can happen. Single handed I find carrying it in above 11-12 kts very risky, as the boat is well heeled & I am already fully occupied working the helm & main. Much above 15kts even with a crew is hard work. So we have to drop it.
With a spinnaker one can still reach if one wishes, but one can carry it dead down wind. This can be done in 25kts. So if a gust hits the boat it will not necessarily broach. The nose should lift & the boat will accelerate. One can also ease rolling by the way one sheets in the corners. That does not happen with an asymetric on a cruiser. Tightening the tack usually just collapses the roach.

Of course some have a sail with a straight luff & a fixed length tack, to allow it to be flown just above the pulpit.However, I am not sure that it would be any use down wind at all.But it is easier to set.

My max white sail area is almost 64m2 & my asymetric is 65M2 so perhaps it could be smaller. I went with the sailmakers recommendations.

If space is limited. ie sailing in the River Crouch where a SW wind runs down the river, tacking an asymetric is often a pain. A spinnaker can be so much better & I have been told of owners who have found a spinnaker far better for that reason.

 

[roaringgirl]

When the apparent wind is behind 120°, we pole our genoa out *to windward* and the main is preventered out to leeward. Obviously your boat will behave slightly differently, but our downwind performance with this config is as fast as with the gennaker. You're safe against gybing as both sails are held fore and aft and can run all the way to 180° apparent and even a bit beyond.

For the record, we get an extra half a knot when we stop our feathering prop from spinning.

 

[Tranona]

On props; a folding prop simply won’t fit, not without significant modifications to either the skeg or the hull. A feathering prop may fit but Darglow said they’d want to have it measured properly to be sure. Plus the price is prohibitive, especially in light of speed not being my sole aim.

Although price is a real barrier - difficult to justify the cost when there are so many other things you can usefully spend your money on, measurement for fit is easy. Darglow will provide a full size template for the hub and blade in its feathered position to that you can check clearances. I drew my stern gear and rudder out full size on a piece of white contiboard then traced to different blades that I might choose (16 and 17"). the critical dimension for me was the lower part of the cutout in the new rudder shape. The only thing you can't simulate is clearance when the rudder is hard over if it is raked like mine. Anyway as the photo shows my measurements were spot on with 8mm clearance when the blades are feathered.

 

[Laysula]

I paid £400 for my secondhand Kiwi prop and another £150 to have it refurbished and set up for my boat by Vecta marine, the importers. They do come up regularly on ebay.