Sail wardrobe expansion - cruising chute or 'better' genoa.

[samfieldhouse]

As ever, I'm awed by the knowledge on this forum. A quick search pulls up some great threads from the past about cruising chutes, these if anyone's interested; Cruising Chute Discussion, Off-the-Shelf chutes from Kemp's (of particular interest) and chutes vs spinnakers.

I'm not looking to squeeze every last knot out of my boat, but I would like better downwind/off the quarter performance in light airs. The boat is a fin keel Cobra 850 (28ft LOA); for the 70s, a 'sporty' cruiser. She's of the IOR era so is mast head rig with a 150% (furling) genoa at 26sqM and a comparatively small main of 13sqM. I'm mostly single handed and don't do any racing 'round the cans so I'm not especially interested in a spinnaker - especially as the sail plan for the boat suggests it should be 60sqM - sounds like a handful!

For this season I bought a new, battened, loose footed main from Kemp's and its transformed her. So I may have got the bug...

Last week I ran back from Yarmouth to Southampton in a light SW - normally when running I rig a preventer on the main and goosewing and it works well. The challenge is when the wind is off the quarter; the main shields the genoa which in light airs collapses. With the main down she lacks drive so I end up motoring in light airs so weaving/gybing downwind.

From the forum's collective experience, would a light weight cruising chute be more effective on very broad reaches than my genoa?

The other issue with the genoa is it doesn't really reef, at about 60% the shape is lost so close hauled above about 23kts of wind its just baggy. I understand that a furling headsail is always a compromise, but would a 'better' investment be a smaller/flatter/more modern genoa?

The off-the-shelf Kemps sails from their E-Sails site look competitively priced and given the service I received when I ordered my main, I would happily continue to support Kemps.

 

[fredrussell]

When I bought a new Genoa I went from 150% down to 135%. Certainly furls to a better shape for beating into a stiff breeze, but I do miss the ‘power’ of 150% in light airs. I have a removable inner forestay with a blade jib for the really blowy stuff, but in truth I’m often too lazy to bother with it since buying the 135%. That said, my main is a fair bit bigger, comparatively, than yours as mine is a fractional rig.

 

[MoodySabre]

A new Genoa with a padded luff is a huge improvement when reefed as it keeps its shape.
Downwind performance is improved by poling the Genoa out so it doesn’t keep collapsing.
Obviously a cruising chute is nice to have but it does require more handling which you may not relish singlehanded (although plenty do)

 

[RivalRedwing]

Back to a recent post... if it has a fixed prop, change it for a feathering or folder possibly before spendng on additional sails.

 

[mrming]

A nice light cruising chute with a lot of draft in it is going to beat a heavy, multi purpose genoa downwind every time. Even better if you have some thinner light weather sheets.

You probably already know these additional, simple things that us racers do as soon as we bear away and hoist, but worth listing them just in case:
- Ease main halyard
- Ease outhaul
- Slack off backstay
- When flying an asymmetric spin (which is basically what a cruising chute is), ease the kicker a bit too

A symmetrical spinnaker with a pole will be far more efficient on your boat, however I get that you don’t fancy wrestling one single handed.

 

[RupertW]

Back to a recent post... if it has a fixed prop, change it for a feathering or folder possibly before spendng on additional sails.

You get 80-90 percent of the benefit of a folding prop by letting a fixed prop spin (according to YM real world tests) but it won’t hurt your speed.

Downwind though it’s a joy to have an asymmetric and I mostly hoist mine myself with autohelm. I have a high cut 100 percent Genoa so it makes a bigger difference to me than it would to you.

 

[Halo]

I bought an esails asymetric chute a couple of years ago. It was inexpensive and works fine if you tack down wind or are on a reach. The snuffer material is a bit like net curtains and does not slide as easy as the snuffer on my smaller Jeckels symetric chute which also benefits from much stronger construction.

I think chutes are great and would not be without either of mine. Many people dont use them much so second hand is worth a look.

As the previous poster said a folding prop is more use than more sails BUT do get the chute of you can

 

[savageseadog]

Forget going dead downwind, it's slow and prone to accidental gybes as well as blanketing the headsail. Work on deep/broad reaching rather than running, it's ofren possible to work the reaches to position the boat advantageously. The asymmetric is a good idea if you can handle the drop

 

[Sandy]

You get 80-90 percent of the benefit of a folding prop by letting a fixed prop spin (according to YM real world tests) but it won’t hurt your speed.

In my case I got on, average, an extra knot when I replaced my fixed prop with a folding one. Not hearing the prop start to spin when the STW was 4.8 knots was priceless. Better fuel consumption as well.

 

[RupertW]

In my case I got on, average, an extra knot when I replaced my fixed prop with a folding one. Not hearing the prop start to spin when the STW was 4.8 knots was priceless. Better fuel consumption as well.

That is extraordinary and very different to the YM tests but glad it worked.

 

[Tranona]

You get 80-90 percent of the benefit of a folding prop by letting a fixed prop spin (according to YM real world tests) but it won’t hurt your speed.

You really are reading into that something that is not there. Even assuming the graph is correct it clearly shows the reduction in drag from locked to spinning is the SAME as from spinning to feathering so do not know how you come to the conclusion that you get 80-90%.

At 5 knots the drag of a locked prop is 20kgs, spinning 10kgs, feathering 0. The reduction from locked to feathering is double that to spinning. You also claim a 1 knot increase in speed by allowing the prop to spin - this is higher than that claimed by makers of folding/feathering who usually suggest between 0.5 and 1 knot. Having done controlled tests on this we found it very difficult to get reliable data over a wide range of conditions. The best measures are average passage times, daily runs or rating penalties (which are derived from past performance differences in races).

The important thing when making a decision about what to spend money on to improve overall performance is that the gains from a feathering/bolding prop are permanent and require no action on the part of the skipper. In the case of the OP a folding prop will be substantially cheaper that a cruising chute. The cruising chute and gear on my last boat cost more than 3 times as much as the Flexofold, and I guess I used the chute for maybe 5% of sailing time but enjoyed the benefit of the prop for 100%.

Cruising chutes are lovely things to have but the time you can actually use them is in my experience very limited, at least in our coastal waters. Priorities are to optimise your working sails in the wind range you prefer to ail, then reduce drag where you get the benefit in all conditions and only then look for filling the gaps in the sail wardrobe.

 

[Tranona]

In my case I got on, average, an extra knot when I replaced my fixed prop with a folding one. Not hearing the prop start to spin when the STW was 4.8 knots was priceless. Better fuel consumption as well.

Quite common experience - upping sailing speed on passage from 5 knots to between 5.5 an6 knots cuts more than an hour and a half off a Poole/Cherbourg run!

 

[samfieldhouse]

Oh gosh, let’s not turn this into another lock vs spin vs feather discussion!

For what it’s worth, I quite enjoy the significant prop walk from my 3 bladed prop - it basically negates the need for a stern thruster… as long as I’m going to port!

I really don’t want to go down the prop discussion thread, but I imagine hull design surely impacts the prop drag?
If you have a sail drive on a modern ‘v-bomber’ style Hanse/Jeanneau/Beneteau/Dufour with a flat-ish bottom, spade rudders and the beam carried a long way aft, a fixed prop is going to be very much in the stream of clean water and causing drag.

But…
I have a lot of hull beneath the waterline, about 40% of her draft is hull. The keel is encapsulated, thick and the prop is very much in its wake - with less than 2” between the prop and the skeg; it’s quite tucked away. Having said that, it does start to spin almost as soon as the engine stops - but I’d have thought that in such a disrupted flow of water the prop’s drag is a lower percentage of the overall drag?

Some really helpful and insightful comments and tips - thank you.

So what about sniffers and launch bags? Sniggers seem to be something else that people are quite encamped about!

 

[KompetentKrew]

Sorry, @samfieldhouse, you might as well just give it up now. I recommend you just unwatch the thread, wait two weeks and then post the same topic at 9am on a Monday morning, Cross your fingers and hope for a different outcome.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We have an asymmetric. They’re easy to launch, easy to trim, and make you go faster. If we had a snuffer, I’d fly ours much more often. So, my input, get the sail, don’t get one bigger than you can handle, and get a snuffer. Your sailing world will be filled with joy. Or glass is just half full, as ours is 750 sq ft, and it’s rather more than a handful.

 

[mrming]

So what about sniffers and launch bags? Sniggers seem to be something else that people are quite encamped about!

I’ve never owned or used a snuffer so take this with a pinch of salt - if they work for other people I’m happy for them. Imo however:
- A snuffer adds extra complexity, it’s an extra thing to go wrong.
- Your boat is relatively small and the cruising chute will be easy enough to handle.
- Sometimes the drop needs to happen quickly, a snuffer slows that down.
- You can always buy a snuffer later.

To douse a cruising chute normally, assuming controls are lead back to clutches at the companionway:
- Flake the halyard and tack line carefully so both are free to run once their clutches are released.
- Stand in the companionway. Grab the sheet in your hand and pull it under the boom towards you, ready to retrieve the sail.
- Release the tack line, which will cause the sail to stop filling.
- Release the halyard and quickly gather the sail in as it comes down, stuffing it down the hatch.
- On my previous small cruiser racer I had a bag that was made to hang in the companionway which the asymmetric kite went straight into, ready for the next hoist.

I have no hard data to support this but I have seen a lot of cruising chutes and snuffers looking brand new in the bag over the years, so I would also consider the prop advice. Generally, if you want to go faster look at race boats. We never have a fixed prop, and we always fly a kite downwind.

HTH

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Maybe my advice differs because I have to douse the kite onto the lee trampoline, where it can be caught by a flurry of wind. It’s 10ft from the companionway to the sheet, hence my need for a snuffer. I end up pulling the sail down and trying to restrain it with my knees, and theres a lot of it..

 

[RupertW]

I wouldn’t be without the snuffer on my asymmetric. A furling might be even nicer but half the time we take down the sail because the wind has got too strong so I like to be able to snuff it quickly then it comes down under easy control. We also run a strict, “Nothing outside inside rule“ to keep the cabin free as possible of salt so anything involving a hatch won’t work for us.

 

[RupertW]

You really are reading into that something that is not there. Even assuming the graph is correct it clearly shows the reduction in drag from locked to spinning is the SAME as from spinning to feathering so do not know how you come to the conclusion that you get 80-90%.
….

Your conclusion seems to be based on different information to the YM tests. It can be seen very clearly that the gap between fixed 3 blade and spinning 3 blade speed is significant and the further gain from spinning 3 blade to folding/feathering is marginal so of interest to racers looking for that tiny advantage but not so much for cruisers. The spped versus power graph surely is the one to look at for the relatively fixed power of whatever sails you have up.

 

[flaming]

As ever, I'm awed by the knowledge on this forum. A quick search pulls up some great threads from the past about cruising chutes, these if anyone's interested; Cruising Chute Discussion, Off-the-Shelf chutes from Kemp's (of particular interest) and chutes vs spinnakers.

I'm not looking to squeeze every last knot out of my boat, but I would like better downwind/off the quarter performance in light airs. The boat is a fin keel Cobra 850 (28ft LOA); for the 70s, a 'sporty' cruiser. She's of the IOR era so is mast head rig with a 150% (furling) genoa at 26sqM and a comparatively small main of 13sqM. I'm mostly single handed and don't do any racing 'round the cans so I'm not especially interested in a spinnaker - especially as the sail plan for the boat suggests it should be 60sqM - sounds like a handful!

For this season I bought a new, battened, loose footed main from Kemp's and its transformed her. So I may have got the bug...

Last week I ran back from Yarmouth to Southampton in a light SW - normally when running I rig a preventer on the main and goosewing and it works well. The challenge is when the wind is off the quarter; the main shields the genoa which in light airs collapses. With the main down she lacks drive so I end up motoring in light airs so weaving/gybing downwind.

From the forum's collective experience, would a light weight cruising chute be more effective on very broad reaches than my genoa?

The other issue with the genoa is it doesn't really reef, at about 60% the shape is lost so close hauled above about 23kts of wind its just baggy. I understand that a furling headsail is always a compromise, but would a 'better' investment be a smaller/flatter/more modern genoa?

The off-the-shelf Kemps sails from their E-Sails site look competitively priced and given the service I received when I ordered my main, I would happily continue to support Kemps.

My opinion... Tackle the genoa first. Downsize it slightly and upspec the cloth and add a foam (or equivalent) luff. You'll transform the performance of the boat in the most rewarding conditions.

However..... The reduction in genoa area will slightly compound your downwind issues. I note that I "contributed" to the threads you linked, and I don't think anything has really changed in my opinions, and I'm generally in large favour of having a kite of some sort. In your place, if budget is an issue, I'd spend the cash on a really good genoa and then scour ebay etc for a cruising chute that is a reasonably close match.

From a cruising point of view, the difference you will get from having a brand new, made to fit, chute compared to a second hand "somewhere close" one is small. The difference between an older genoa and a new one is not small.