Sail Training - it should not be about making money.

[RichMac]

We all have a love of sailing, and those of us with more experience are keen to contribute. But sail training is being increasingly dominated by commercial interests, with the RYA and others guarding their material behind expensive paywalls.

Around the world, the vast majority of sailors are self-taught, learning from mates, online, and the school of hard knocks. I published my video on anchoring and digital navigation because I saw a need. They were humble efforts, this forum has hundreds of sailing educators who could do a much better job.

YouTube is an amazing non-commercial instructional medium, with a massive audience. I never guessed that 120,000 people would be interested in anchoring! Making a video is a lot of work, but not hard. Online articles are easier to write, but have less reach. There are plenty of subjects needing more material.

There's a great opportunity to contribute to our wonderful sport, and make sailing safer, more affordable, and enjoyable for all.

 

[LittleSister]

YouTube is an amazing non-commercial instructional medium, with a massive audience. I never guessed that 120,000 people would be interested in anchoring! Making a video is a lot of work, but not hard.

There is an awful lot of nonsense on Youtube, and you are adding to it.

It's hard for presenters of such material to know what they do know and what they do not know. Some of them don't even care.

It's also hard for viewers of such material to know whether the person they're watching is someone who really knows what they are talking about, or someone who just likes talking.

By contrast, RYA syllabuses and instructors are stringently vetted by others who are very highly experienced in both sailing and training, and they in turn are monitored. It's not perfect, but it is great. RYA training is not free, but (in my experience) it's very good value.

You wouldn't make the grade as an RYA instructor, at least without a lot of training and a change of attitude.

 

[rotrax]

We all have a love of sailing, and those of us with more experience are keen to contribute. But sail training is being increasingly dominated by commercial interests, with the RYA and others guarding their material behind expensive paywalls.

Around the world, the vast majority of sailors are self-taught, learning from mates, online, and the school of hard knocks. I published my video on anchoring and digital navigation because I saw a need. They were humble efforts, this forum has hundreds of sailing educators who could do a much better job.

YouTube is an amazing non-commercial instructional medium, with a massive audience. I never guessed that 120,000 people would be interested in anchoring! Making a video is a lot of work, but not hard. Online articles are easier to write, but have less reach. There are plenty of subjects needing more material.

There's a great opportunity to contribute to our wonderful sport, and make sailing safer, more affordable, and enjoyable for all.

You are naive to believe so.

I was, in a previous life, a trainer in industry.

To do the job right you need a clearly defined aim - the object of the training. You need a clearly defined measurement of whether the training has been successful. The result of the training.

Youtube and helpful mates plus experience may bring a new sailor to the right place, but it also may not.

And, it cant be measured objectively.

The RYA has a standard recognised worldwide.

The RYA themselves carry out no training, but as the official body representing sailing in the UK they provide the course syllabus, the minimum standard for a successful result and oversee that the training establishments trainers are qualified to carry out their duties.

Youtube, mates and experience cant do that.

But, it is also fair for me to state that as a mere Coastal Skipper - pre Coastal Yachtmaster days - I have met and sailed with Yachtmasters who I and First Mate deemed incompetent. And sailed with those with no formal qualification at all who we considered excellent.

We do, however, have all our log books. When the mileage is totted up, after 17 years we have covered a fair distance and spent a long time on the ocean. Experience gained thus furthers the sound base from formal training.

IMHO, of course.

 

[RichMac]

I was, in a previous life, a trainer in industry.

Hi Rotrax, with your background you could be the man! Rather than criticise my amateur offerings, you could do much better.

Anchoring is important, it's the most likely way of having big hassles or a damaged boat. But the RYA's offering on anchoring is pitiful, despite their highly experienced instructors. Their anchoring info is 10 - 15 years out of date, not showing the new generation anchors. It is devoid of any useful information, and dead wrong for scope in shallow water. And repeated requests for them to update it have been ignored.

So who is teaching anchoring? Maybe a good instructor if you're lucky, or maybe not covered at all. That's why I made the video, I wanted to help people to be more secure at anchor. Criticise my video if you like, but please, please do something positive, you or someone else should publish something better!

Things to think about when anchoring | Inbrief | e-newsletters | News & Events | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

 

[sarabande]

Rich

Commercial training
I admire your altruism, but you are not living in the real world.

Yes, people need training so that best practice is achieved. In sailing as well as in airlines, for example.

Training costs money to deliver properly, and Youtube may be one of many effective media for delivering that training. The problem is that no-one critically assesses the output on youtube in the same way that serious standard-setting training organisations like the RYA, PADI, USCG do with their commercial delivery channels.

Who pays for the complicated and expensive delivery of the knowledge and practice to a certain set standards ?

It has to be done at a commercial level, which is why a week's course in the BVI will be more expensive than a week in a shed in Portland. Training (content and methodology) is time-consuming to prepare, but unless it is measured successfully against certain established criteria of performance, it is of naught.


RYA anchoring
There are political and commercial considerations in the RYA graphic you have used and criticised. The RYA cannot be seen to endorse any particular model of anchor so all the NG variant designs are subsumed in the generic descriptions of 'plough', 'delta' etc, without (not entirely successfully) mentioning a specific maker.

The rest of the background info on the page seems to be generally practical and effective. What are your specific criticisms (in contrast to "being out of date" ? Clearly the RYA cannot create and publish recommendations for every anchoring scenario (deep kelp layers on dense sand/mud, or eelgrass on shallow light sand, or motile cobbles (Wentworth scale 2 to 10 inches) on horizontal breccia sheet). Their advice is generic, from which both beginners and experienced sailors have to extrapolate from real life situations the best combination of tackle and technique. Simply saying, as you do that adding 50% to the mass of a standard anchor ("go two sizes bigger") is not advice that is best practice or good sense. It may work some of the time, but it will bring concomitant problems with cost, storage, handling, chain, winch and chain/warp size.

Be specific: what requests have you made to update the info ? Just general asks, or have you given technically justified and tested examples of where the RYA is wrong or where there are knowledge and practice gaps ?


Oh, BTW, Youtube is as commercial as they come. Many sailors earn quite a bit of money from posting on it.

 

[duncan99210]

I’ve watched this debate over three threads now. I admire the OPs courage in continuing to post but I feel he’s missed the point about how training in the real world is organised, delivered, monitored and, most importantly, paid for. Sometimes that training is mandated by government, a syllabus is designed by a legally designated agency, delivered by authorised instructors and tested by independent examiners. All of that has to be paid for and it’s usually the person requiring the training who pays.
The RYA fits into this system as the MCA designated training organisation. The RYA designs the syllabus to meet the objectives defined by the MCA, they then write the training materials to deliver those objectives. The RYA authorise schools to teach their syllabus via qualified instructors: in the case of entry level qualifications, those instructors will issue pass/fail certificate at the end of the course. For more advanced qualifications, an external examiner will do the testing. That all has to be paid for......
Similarly, BSAC do the same for diving, alongside PADI and others. That has to be paid for. You can’t learn how to dive off YouTube, unless you’ve got a serious wish to commit suicide.
There is a place for video instruction. It lies in the classroom, backed by an instructor to expand on the video, correct mistaken understanding and ensure that students have really grasped what the video was about. Watching a video about a topic without that human interaction leads to misunderstandings and false lessons, especially for a entry level student.
I write on this as an ex RYA powerboat instructor and a diving instructor: you need the properly developed syllabus, training materials and external verification system that is delivered by organisations such as PADI, BSAC and the RYA. Without that it’s anarchy and the loudest voice wins.
There’s always a time lag between a new development in the field and the training organisation issuing an update to accommodate the change. If nothing else, the training organisation has to evaluate the change before altering their syllabus: is this exciting new way of doing something really a radical change or is it just a slight tweak that doesn’t need a change to the syllabus? When I was an active dive instructor, we got monthly updates, changing pages in our instructors manual to reflect changes in the way we were to teach a particular topic. Those updates meant that I could accept a student from another dive centre knowing exactly what they’d been taught at that point in their course. We were all using the same lesson plans, using the same videos, doing the same exercise in the water...... You cannot get that from the anarchy that is YouTube.

 

[Dutch01527]

I find You Tube a very valuable resource. It is easy to decide who is a real expert and who is not. People like Skip Novac , Pip Hare or Tom Cunliffe offer great content.

I have mixed feelings about the RYA Training. Good idea in principle and a good start point for beginner and good for advanced training such as Offshore YachtMaster. However I have sailed with a number of newly ticketed Day Skippers and one Coastal Skipper who were basically incompetent. They had been taught to pass an examination but had very little experience or common sense.

 

[scotty123]

I’ve watched this debate over three threads now. I admire the OPs courage in continuing to post but I feel he’s missed the point about how training in the real world is organised, delivered, monitored and, most importantly, paid for. Sometimes that training is mandated by government, a syllabus is designed by a legally designated agency, delivered by authorised instructors and tested by independent examiners. All of that has to be paid for and it’s usually the person requiring the training who pays.
The RYA fits into this system as the MCA designated training organisation. The RYA designs the syllabus to meet the objectives defined by the MCA, they then write the training materials to deliver those objectives. The RYA authorise schools to teach their syllabus via qualified instructors: in the case of entry level qualifications, those instructors will issue pass/fail certificate at the end of the course. For more advanced qualifications, an external examiner will do the testing. That all has to be paid for......
Similarly, BSAC do the same for diving, alongside PADI and others. That has to be paid for. You can’t learn how to dive off YouTube, unless you’ve got a serious wish to commit suicide.
There is a place for video instruction. It lies in the classroom, backed by an instructor to expand on the video, correct mistaken understanding and ensure that students have really grasped what the video was about. Watching a video about a topic without that human interaction leads to misunderstandings and false lessons, especially for a entry level student.
I write on this as an ex RYA powerboat instructor and a diving instructor: you need the properly developed syllabus, training materials and external verification system that is delivered by organisations such as PADI, BSAC and the RYA. Without that it’s anarchy and the loudest voice wins.
There’s always a time lag between a new development in the field and the training organisation issuing an update to accommodate the change. If nothing else, the training organisation has to evaluate the change before altering their syllabus: is this exciting new way of doing something really a radical change or is it just a slight tweak that doesn’t need a change to the syllabus? When I was an active dive instructor, we got monthly updates, changing pages in our instructors manual to reflect changes in the way we were to teach a particular topic. Those updates meant that I could accept a student from another dive centre knowing exactly what they’d been taught at that point in their course. We were all using the same lesson plans, using the same videos, doing the same exercise in the water...... You cannot get that from the anarchy that is YouTube.

Problem arises, when with all the best motives, these courses become like PADI (Put Another Dollar In).
Training establishments have to be 'commercial' to survive.

 

[rotrax]

I find You Tube a very valuable resource. It is easy to decide who is a real expert and who is not. People like Skip Novac , Pip Hare or Tom Cunliffe offer great content.

I have mixed feelings about the RYA Training. Good idea in principle and a good start point for beginner and good for advanced training such as Offshore YachtMaster. However I have sailed with a number of newly ticketed Day Skippers and one Coastal Skipper who were basically incompetent. They had been taught to pass an examination but had very little experience or common sense.

And there is the rub.

First mate and I studied, in our own time, at home, using the excellent RYA textbooks, up to Yachtmaster standard and lobbied help from a Yachtmaster Examiner from our winter talks club if we had trouble with anything.

Never took a formal classroom exam, but took the practical courses after satisfying ourselves we were ready.

We took our last courses on Golden Vanity, then just celebrating her 100th birthday. She is one of Trinity Sailing's Brixham Trawlers, a powerful gaffer, about 36 foot on deck but nearly 60 foot overall due to the bowsprit and overlapping boom.

Getting back, our GibSea 96 felt like a toy!

Vanity was a real handfull, 9 foot draught, long keel, prop on the piss so she would only turn one way easily, not a winch in sight!

But, what a ride. We experienced F7 downwind and big seas and she handled it easily. The Skipper, a tiny lady called Georgina was a fantastic sailor and a great instructor on the heavy antique rig.

The courses on Vanity were one of our best decisions - we learned SO much.

I said before that we have sailed with YM's who we deemed incompetent. And others who had no formal training at all who were great. What can you draw from that, I wonder. You certainly cant write off RYA training as a whole, can you?

I maintain that a course from a recognised RYA training centre is far better than not taking one.

Certainly better than watching youtube.......................................

 

[RichMac]

Training costs money to deliver properly,
Who pays for the complicated and expensive delivery of the knowledge and practice to a certain set standards ?
The rest of the background info on the page seems to be generally practical and effective. What are your specific criticisms (in contrast to "being out of date" ?

Hi Saraband. Thanks for engaging!
The navigation video is complicated, tangled up in the eternal digital vs paper argument. Theres not much point in discussing that!
Anchoring is much more direct, and there should be no cultural arguments either way.

I'll address the failings in the RYA anchoring page. There are several versions of it with similar contents.
https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/e...ges/things-to-think-about-when-anchoring.aspx

1. Their scope is wrong, with no inclusion of bow height. In 2.5m of water, they suggest 10m of chain. Add my bow height of 1.5m, and the scope is just 10/4 = 2.5. Totally inadequate! I suggest 15m + double depth = 20m. If you don't like that, just stick to minimum 20 or 25m as is often recommended.

2. Anchor choice. The 'New Generation' anchors are universally regarded as much improved over the traditional Delta or CQR. If they are too conservative to suggest the best anchor, the very least is to include a Rocna, Spade, or Manson Supreme in the list. Give the new sailors a chance!

3. Always let out extra chain if it's windy, at least an extra 10m to reduce anchor lifting and reduce snatch.

4. Always pull the anchor after setting. Half throttle in reverse, or full throttle if you have a folding prop.

5. If anchoring overnight in regions with potential bad weather, choose at least one size bigger. Even Delta recommend that - in the very fine print!

6. If using all chain, consider using a rope snubber to reduce peak loads.

It won't send RYA broke to update that page, about an afternoon's work and well overdue!

But I've come up with a much better idea. Why don't a few of us write the updated page for them, and send it to them. They might take notice of a group approach, where individuals have failed to get past the too-hard basket. I'd love to contribute to a really helpful anchoring article.

 

[rotrax]

Hi Rotrax, with your background you could be the man! Rather than criticise my amateur offerings, you could do much better.

Anchoring is important, it's the most likely way of having big hassles or a damaged boat. But the RYA's offering on anchoring is pitiful, despite their highly experienced instructors. Their anchoring info is 10 - 15 years out of date, not showing the new generation anchors. It is devoid of any useful information, and dead wrong for scope in shallow water. And repeated requests for them to update it have been ignored.

So who is teaching anchoring? Maybe a good instructor if you're lucky, or maybe not covered at all. That's why I made the video, I wanted to help people to be more secure at anchor. Criticise my video if you like, but please, please do something positive, you or someone else should publish something better!

Things to think about when anchoring | Inbrief | e-newsletters | News & Events | RYA - Royal Yachting Association
View attachment 83945
View attachment 83946

Thanks for the vote of approval, but training is long past me now. I last gave a short lecture on the GPZ 1100 Kawasaki motorcycle's Electronic Fuel Injection to the IMI around 1981.

I have two boats, both with 20 kilo delta's. The smaller boat, in Wellington, NZ, has 10 metres of 8mm chain and 50 metres of rope warp. No windlass. Not anchored in challenging conditions with this one so far, but our old generation hook holds securely every time we drop it.

Our UK boat, a heavy Motorsailer - lots of windage and about 15 tons when lifted with empty water tanks and a lot of gear taken off has all 8mm chain and a vertical windlass. Never dragged once set, but have had two occasions where I had to recover and move spots. I suspected weed at the time as there was plenty about.

Previous boat had a 20 kilo genuine Bruce, that only failed to set once during a lunch hook in Osbourne bay. When retrieved it had a large boulder filling its jaws, so little wonder it would not catch.

Perhaps we have been lucky, but we have little problem setting our hooks and subsequently holding station.

And, my techinque and rode calcs are RYA based, plus I will admit, if enough swinging room, a fair bit extra for luck!

With all chain rode, I always use a chain hook and snubber. My bow is almost 2 metres above the waterline. I took that into account before marking the chain.

 

[Refueler]

Funny how RYA provides advice and support to many countries Yachting Bodies ....

I looked into creating a Sail School here in Baltics ... I discussed with James at RYA (he's now retired) and was offered the same documentation / info / support they have given to many others around world. Unfortunately circumstances changed and I could not commit the finances.

RYA is recognised as a reputable and responsible body. But it does come at a price : Its not a Govt body. Its a Private body and therefore must recoup costs.

 

[RupertW]

Although I think half your anchoring tips are not thought through and sometimes plain wrong, I do agree that the balance between learning from experience and learning from an official school has become completely unbalanced, leading to huge numbers of people with the certificates but little ability.

But then I come from the old way of sailing as a kid in little old boats with my family, then sharing a 24 footer with my Dad then buying it from him and moving slowly up boat sizes over decades. That’s great, and mostly far better than going on a load of courses. I was able to charter without any certs without problems. However that restricts the people able to go sailing enormously so sailing schools are in my view very much a second best to experience but vital to keep the sport alive.

And when I wanted to do some commercial deliveries after 20 years of sailing I was able to get the certs needed for YM commercial in a few weeks, and learnt lots of different ways of doing things that I had never considered. Any experienced sailing instructor I’ve met knows much more than I do because they have done it week in and week out as a job not a holiday hobby. Their pupils though charge around anchorages scarily in boats they are not yet ready for - perhaps because so many go from course completion to an annual 2 week charter, rather than to sailing their own boat every other weekend.

 

[laika]

I'll address the failings in the RYA anchoring page. There are several versions of it with similar contents.
Things to think about when anchoring | Inbrief | e-newsletters | News & Events | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

The url ("e-newsletters/inbrief") suggests that this page is not intended as the RYA's definitive guide to anchoring. You may be railing against the wrong thing.

 

[fredrussell]

On my DaySkipper practical, it became very clear to me that if you turned up and did the 5 days afloat, you passed. One of my fellow trainees had no idea what leeway was, couldn’t work out tide heights, tie a bowline and so on. He passed. I was pleased for him, he was a nice guy, but really, what was the point? I’m sure it’s different for higher RYA qualifications, but for me it was a waste of £600.

 

[JumbleDuck]

1. Their scope is wrong, with no inclusion of bow height. In 2.5m of water, they suggest 10m of chain. Add my bow height of 1.5m, and the scope is just 10/4 = 2.5. Totally inadequate! I suggest 15m + double depth = 20m. If you don't like that, just stick to minimum 20 or 25m as is often recommended.

If you go around putting out 25m chain in 2.5m water you are going to make yourself simultaneously very unpopular and ridiculous. I watched some of your anchoring video and thought it was a spoof in the style of Alan Partridge. I am quite disconcerted by the idea that you're serious.

 

[Stemar]

On my DaySkipper practical, it became very clear to me that if you turned up and did the 5 days afloat, you passed. One of my fellow trainees had no idea what leeway was, couldn’t work out tide heights, tie a bowline and so on. He passed. I was pleased for him, he was a nice guy, but really, what was the point? I’m sure it’s different for higher RYA qualifications, but for me it was a waste of £600.

Mine was different. We had a couple with some experience, both doing Coastal Skipper, plus two complete newbies doing Comp Crew. The husband got his CS, but his wife really wasn't competent to skipper a boat, so she ended up with Comp Crew. I upgraded to Day skipper a day or two into the course. The instructor was dubious, but said OK, IF I reached the standard, which I did.

However, any course should be treated the way my driving instructor treated my instruction. "Well done, you've passed your test. Now get out there and learn to drive."

 

[dunedin]

RichMac, welcome to the YBW Forum.

However, I fear the Forum Rules have not been explained to you. These Rules are:

• Do not start a thread on Anchoring – especially do not discuss the best type of anchor, or the catenary effect, or otherwise, of chain.
• Do not mention the RYA – whether praise or criticism, this will provoke argument from those with fixed contrary views.
• Do not mention the RNLI – ditto.
• Do not discuss flag etiquette – this will not be understood by those happy people who live in the other 99% of countries where you just attach your (un-modified) national flag to the stern and go sailing. You need to look up the word “pedant” in the dictionary.
• Do not criticise the Royal Navy – the YBW Forum doubles as the ex-RN retirees’ forum.
• Do not discuss steel boats – to understand the reason please read the thread with circa 30,000 posts, or alternatively read this shorter precis – “people do not agree about this”.
• Do not criticise Andersen 22’s or Island Packet yachts – these boats are paragons of virtue that mere mortals cannot comprehend.
• Do not visit the Lounge – if you do visit, you might be tempted to start an Anchor thread to have a less controversial and confrontational experience.

If I have missed anything, others will be along to rectify this mortal omission.

Be reassured that the majority of Forum readers are in fact open minded and are happy to listen and learn from alternative views and experiences, particularly supported by demonstrated facts and experience.

I of course am one of these open minded people and have no prejudices or pet topics. It is everybody else who are closed minded pedants (?).

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Refueler]

Pay your money - get an ICC in the Post.

Many moons ago - I had to get an ICC as my boat was in Latvia and they don't like Commity ... so you need to show something.

I spoke to RYA and promptly in post I had my ICC (I've been RYA member and still am for many years). I looked on it ... OH Dear ... Coastal, Power and PWC only !!

Picked up phone - spoke to them and passed on the facts that I was Qualified EDH + Cox'n Sail and Motor Lifeboats ...

OOP'S was reply ... but I still had to complete the CEVNI ..... online.

 

[ctva]

Wow!

I was suckered in to watching the first video and now realise that the OP has probably just joined to promote his YouTube videos to get advertising revenue (I wonder how many other forums are infected ). And the title of this thread smacks of hypocrisy! (If I am wrong I apologise.)

As someone who has been involved in RYA training for nearly 40 years at all levels from volunteer 'instructor' at a Scout Centre to training and examining instructors in power and sail, I have to agree with the majority of posters above and on your other two 'advertising' threads about what appears to be your complete lack of understanding of the RYA training materials and delivery.

When someone attends a course and gets a qualification, they are not learning experience, they are learning the basic tools to go out and safely (one hopes) gain their own experience with the basic understanding gained on a weekend or 5 day course. The same as learning to drive. Once you pass your test, you then learn to drive in the real world.

As in all walks of life, there are sensible people and those that are not so. All we can do as instructors is point people in the right direction and show where further sources of learning are available, after that they make their own choices. Unfortunately with the internet now and this forum is an example, there is a lot of 'not so good' information out there and an inexperienced person will not be able to sort the wheat from the chaff which is possibly why there are so many issues.

As to the OP's list of missing information on the RYA's page, I like any other experienced person, could sit here and list out many factors and basic information that you have missed.

Anchor type to seabed
Not dropping the chain in a pile
How to drive (if needed) the anchor in
Securing to anchor, not on the windlass

The RYA, whilst not perfect, is forever evolving and I would say, has had a hand in training for the vast majority of UK sailors and I imagine the same would be true of may other countries and their NGB. Of course training is just one small piece of work done by the RYA to allow us to continue to sail freely in our waters.

Whilst the OP may be sincere, I do feel there is some underlying axe grinding going on.