Sail Training - it should not be about making money.

RichMac said:
We all have a love of sailing, and those of us with more experience are keen to contribute. But sail training is being increasingly dominated by commercial interests, with the RYA and others guarding their material behind expensive paywalls.

Around the world, the vast majority of sailors are self-taught, learning from mates, online, and the school of hard knocks. I published my video on anchoring and digital navigation because I saw a need. They were humble efforts, this forum has hundreds of sailing educators who could do a much better job.

YouTube is an amazing non-commercial instructional medium, with a massive audience. I never guessed that 120,000 people would be interested in anchoring! Making a video is a lot of work, but not hard. Online articles are easier to write, but have less reach. There are plenty of subjects needing more material.

There's a great opportunity to contribute to our wonderful sport, and make sailing safer, more affordable, and enjoyable for all.
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Can you define what sail training is? I volunteer with a Sail Training organisation and it is a million mile away from your posting.

If you are talking about the training and regulation on leisure sailors that is a totally different subject!
 
UK should think itself very lucky to have the RYA.

Over here in Latvia ... there's a bunch of shiesters in Riga who charge silly money for sail training - then you have to go to Tallinn Estonia if you want a Certificate !

Its why I wanted to set up here - to bring sensible setup in. I may still do it later once I get my Middle East Ops sorted out again.
 
Free information can be good or can be tripe. You have to use your own filters--tricky for newbys. Often, it is worth what you paid for it. Obviously, I like the internet.

Published or instructor information is generally vetted, but quality does vary and opinions vary. But on the average, taking the good with the bad, books are better researched than blogs. Editing and researching is work, so why should it be free? I have walls full of books, and they most are credible. They also cost more.

Books are free in libraries. All the basic sail training you will every need is at the public library. I say this even though I sell books. And this is true of many subjects. I love libraries just as much as the internet. Different, but such a valuable resource.

The market will decide.
 
Ok, guilty of joining to promote discussion on navigation and anchoring. But no ads in the videos, no income. It's not about making money!

I didn't get much discussion on the subject matters, but I've learned a bit about how the RYA operates.

There's no provable science in anchoring, with a vast range of anchors, bottoms, sea-states and yacht types. So a panel of experts in a bureaucracy is unable to formulate a policy to teach and test with multiple choice. So they just avoid the issue, and teach almost nothing which is sad, anchoring is important.

Those of us that are dependant on our anchors day and night in a wide range of weather condition have a different approach, we use the collective experience of those around us. We do anything to reduce the chances of dragging. If most people say their Rocna (Spade etc) works better than the old Delta, then that's good advice to take. You learn a lot from your own mistakes and talking to other sailors who are actually out there, and have done it for years. But this is unscientific and unproven, and not likely to get into any official training manuals.

Anyway, thanks guys for the discussions, I'll see you later.
 
dunedin said:
RichMac, welcome to the YBW Forum.

However, I fear the Forum Rules have not been explained to you. These Rules are:
  • Do not start a thread on Anchoring – especially do not discuss the best type of anchor, or the catenary effect, or otherwise, of chain.
  • Do not mention the RYA – whether praise or criticism, this will provoke argument from those with fixed contrary views.
  • Do not mention the RNLI – ditto.
  • Do not discuss flag etiquette – this will not be understood by those happy people who live in the other 99% of countries where you just attach your (un-modified) national flag to the stern and go sailing. You need to look up the word “pedant” in the dictionary.
  • Do not criticise the Royal Navy – the YBW Forum doubles as the ex-RN retirees’ forum.
  • Do not discuss steel boats – to understand the reason please read the thread with circa 30,000 posts, or alternatively read this shorter precis – “people do not agree about this”.
  • Do not criticise Andersen 22’s or Island Packet yachts – these boats are paragons of virtue that mere mortals cannot comprehend.
  • Do not visit the Lounge – if you do visit, you might be tempted to start an Anchor thread to have a less controversial and confrontational experience.
If I have missed anything, others will be along to rectify this mortal omission.

Be reassured that the majority of Forum readers are in fact open minded and are happy to listen and learn from alternative views and experiences, particularly supported by demonstrated facts and experience.

I of course am one of these open minded people and have no prejudices or pet topics. It is everybody else who are closed minded pedants (?).

Welcome to the forum.
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+1, Well said.
RichMac: Don't be put off by the critics; there are many people here who are hiding behind their laptops, with fixed views and ready to disagree regardless. Also, there are people here who are eager to hear other points of view, accepting that we all have views and opinions, some good and some not as good.
 
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
there are people here who are eager to hear other points of view, accepting that we all have views and opinions, some good and some not as good.
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That's true, but some have heard the OP's views and opinions, and knows they're mistaken and ill researched, and that he has declined to edit out out of his videos the outrageous slurs he made when it was pointed out they were ill-founded.
 
RichMac said:
Ok, guilty of joining to promote discussion on navigation and anchoring. But no ads in the videos, no income. It's not about making money!

I didn't get much discussion on the subject matters, but I've learned a bit about how the RYA operates.

There's no provable science in anchoring, with a vast range of anchors, bottoms, sea-states and yacht types. So a panel of experts in a bureaucracy is unable to formulate a policy to teach and test with multiple choice. So they just avoid the issue, and teach almost nothing which is sad, anchoring is important.

Those of us that are dependant on our anchors day and night in a wide range of weather condition have a different approach, we use the collective experience of those around us. We do anything to reduce the chances of dragging. If most people say their Rocna (Spade etc) works better than the old Delta, then that's good advice to take. You learn a lot from your own mistakes and talking to other sailors who are actually out there, and have done it for years. But this is unscientific and unproven, and not likely to get into any official training manuals.

Anyway, thanks guys for the discussions, I'll see you later.
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Not true. The issue is not avoided during an RYA course,, but covered in a way that has long been proved to be satisfactory.

I am prudent with my anchoring technique and am confident of not dragging within the use we make of our boats.

If we were world girdlers living aboard full time no doubt a more modern anchor would be used. Along with heavier chain.

And, we are sailors who have been out there doing it for17 years, after a CC course in Menorca with an RYA approved training establishment. Averaging 1,700 NM's each year in and around the British Isles. As a well known sailor you refered to earlier said" if you can sail in the English Channel, you can sail anywhere" Tom Cunliffe.

To get back to basics, any training must have a clearly defined objective - the reason for the training.

Post training must have a measurable result on the trainings effectiveness - the result of the training. Might be Instructor assesment, might be a formal exam.

Put those together and you have an effective and measurable training programme.

Without those, you don't.
 
To pick up on a couple of side point made during the thread -

Folks have rightly said that certificates are no substitute for experience, but all the more advanced RYA courses or exams require certain amounts of previous experience. Don't forget that the certificates don't say you now know it all, just that you've reached the required standard on that particular course or exam.

I think someone also said above that you can find all the information you need on line, or in books, so no need to do the courses. That's true to an extent, but there's no substitute for an experienced and capable guide (RYA or otherwise) to help you to identify the gaps in your knowledge/ability and to address them, and also give you confidence by highlighting and praising the things that you are good at.

There seems to be some assumption from those who have not done them, that RYA courses have some prescribed 'RYA method' or anchoring, navigating or whatever. This was not my experience at all.

When I did my Coastal Skipper practical, all four of us (two of whom were doing it as prep for a Yachtmaster exam the following week) were quite experienced in very different ways (e.g circumnavigator; numerous channel crossings; regular skipper of a large club boat crewed by various combinations of club members; to a lot of trips, but mainly in one coastal locality). We each had different ways of tackling tasks and responding to issues (and different weaknesses and gaps in our knowledge!), and learnt an enormous amount from each other - new techniques, management of self and crew, etc., etc. (including, sometimes, how not to do or approach things!) - and the excellent instructor actively encouraged and guided this. He would, for example, get us to practise everybody's different techniques, show us some others, and encourage us to critically assess each method's advantages and disadvantages. He emphasised there was nearly always more than one way of doing almost anything, and we needed to have a range of possibilities, and choose and adapt them according to the circumstances (crew, conditions etc.). We had a whale of a time (despite it being the depths of a UK winter), and all of us were significantly better sailors at the end of it (and less likely to think we knew it all, or even 'enough'). Almost priceless, certainly value for money, and something you don't get from books or the internet.
 
Similar experience to Little Sister. All of our RYA practical training courses were very worthwhile. And allowed a sensible progression towards higher standards.

We found a mentor, a Yachtmaster Examiner who assisted with our off water prep when we were unsure and came on a few trips with us. He would boast he had sailed a quarter of a million NM's and never owned a boat! Senior Skipper for the JSASTC.

First thing he said when he came aboard was could he see our log book. Fifteen minutes later he said " Wow - don't you two do a lot of sailing! "

He would never preach but ask how we would tackle this, how would we deal with this or that, absorb our reply and agree or suggest a constructive alternative.

This training has allowed a mature couple who came to sailing very late in life to get on the water with substantial vessels without being apprehensive. The confidence from completing the RYA practical courses in adverse conditions was of huge benefit.

Horses for courses. A very good and well qualified race sailor from NZ spent a week last year on board with us. His rope work was atrocious, his nav pretty poor plus he did not understand the danger of trying to hold a heavy vessel alongside without getting the line on a cleat pretty sharpish. 50 years sailing in NZ's North Island but only with stripped down lightweight racers.

He had experience aplenty, but of the wrong kind.

He found the Solent - and busy Portsmouth Harbour - mindblowing after the relative quiet of Wellington!
 
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sarabande said:
Oh, BTW, Youtube is as commercial as they come. Many sailors earn quite a bit of money from posting on it.
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ctva said:
Wow!

I was suckered in to watching the first video and now realise that the OP has probably just joined to promote his YouTube videos to get advertising revenue (I wonder how many other forums are infected :sneaky:).
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Quite.
The thread title Sail Training - it should not be about making money is quite interesting in itself.

We're all clickbait now...
 
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Babylon said:
Quite.
The thread title Sail Training - it should not be about making money is quite interesting in itself.

We're all clickbait now...
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I have read the threads with interest but not watched either video. I was put off by him being new on the forum and seeming to say 'that he knows it all'. As others have said training shows you a few ways of doing things and can make you think about other ways, but even after 50 years plus of mucking around in boats I still find 'new' ways of doing things. Some I forget very quickly as they don't work on my boat, but others I remember or even adopt. Having an all singing dancing plotter on board I still use paper charts for planning and seeing the big picture that plotters can struggle with imho.
 
I wonder if RichMac is putting his little comedic vids on other forums too:

"NASA doesn't know which way to point a rocket " ?​

"Brunel had no idea about bridge building" ?​

:sleep:
 
Little Sister : Post #30 - nails it on the head.

I can give an example of different ways and getting job done.

My SR25 ... the old 4-99 Perkins seized when at Folly Inn Isle of Wight. So we sailed down river ... out and across to Langstone to try and get back to Hayling Yacht Co berth.
We only found engine seized when getting ready to depart the Folly, which meant we were pushed for time under sail alone.

Right - onto the real point .... Mike used to have a Moody 31 and his experience was to use mainsail alone if wanting to navigate a winding channel. He insisted he wanted to try and get up the channel to Hayling YC berth using mainsail. (if you don't know it - its a channel bounded by marsh and has a number of tight points with plenty of moored boats either side ... not ideal for sail only ).
So away you go Mike ... it was my boat - but I have no problem handing tiller over ... and I do as they ask.

The inevitable happened - we ran onto mud ... I had mentioned that my boat is better under reduced genny for this sort of work - as are many old boats.

Decision made ... Mike and the two ladies were taken of by another boat and I stayed on board contemplating either wait for nighttime tide and trying to see to get to berth or get of the mud.

Out came anchor chain and flaked on deck. Genny rolled out a 1/4 and sheeted in to try force bow round to the channel. Tiller set by TP straight ... I threw out anchor ... let it hit bottom and then pulled. Boat moved a touch .. Genny caught and moved her a bit more. Threw anchor again ... pulled and baot was basically being inched of the mud back to the channel ... tide was falling so I had to act quick.
Finally it was clear she was free ... back to cockpit - kick of TP and sail her up to first turn ... mmmmm took chance and cut channel to get round turn and clear of moored boat.

This continued till I got to the pontoon area ..... my berth was deep in being a blige keeler - which was too much of a risk to try and get past other boats and then into berth single handed.
Dropped anchor as close to outer waiting pontoon as I could ... dinghy down and took line ashore ... made fast to pontoon ... back to boat and hauled her alongside. Tied up ... called Mike asking if he wanted to come back and collect his stuff !!

I don't think any of that would ever feature in an RYA class ... BUT I am sure if the situation came up - it would not be dismissed or thought wrong.

As others say - RYA and such - teach basics ... its then up to us to the go out and expand on it. Its same with Professional Ships Tickets ...

I can pass on advise given by a Radar Instructor ......

Looking at the radar screen and its like confetti all the ships etc. on it ... and you are asked to get your ship through it ...

After most failed (I didn't actually .... ) he then tells whats not in the books etc ... TURN THE BLO**Y range down and deal with them as they come up ... (which is what I had done ... I learnt that on board a ship from another !).
 
Respect for sailing down HYC's entrance channel-I know it well!

I am well aware of how soft the mud is there-we got in late on a tide, black mud bought to the surface by the prop and keel.

When the water was gone - it was nearly Springs - there was a 2 foot deep channel through the mud right into our berth!

The boat, an Island Packet SP Cruiser draws 1.1 metres, long keel, and we never felt a thing, it seemed quite normal.

On another occasion I dropped a sail batten at low tide- it just disappeared into the mud. It was 2 metres long.
 
Pity I cannot access Photobucket ... but I have a cracking photo of tram lines through mud at Newport from my SR25 bilge keels ploughing through.
Also at HYCO in / out of my berth.

43HP in my 25ft'r certainly helps ...
 
I didn't get an answer to my question on one of the other threads about whether the OP actually did RYA training or IYT: An instructor can be accredited with both but he mentioned IYT in relation to his dayskipper. And IYT != RYA. The criticism of lack of electronic nav training by the RYA is odd because they *do* cover use of electronic nav aids. The OP's reference for inadequate coverage of anchoring in RYA training is based on a newsletter article entitled "some points to consider when anchoring" rather than the actual training material. If the OP is going to challenge an existing training syllabus it should be from the standpoint of detailed familiarity with the syllabus and given that any course is time bounded, an idea of what will be discarded when supplementary material is included. I'm wondering if his training was an ITY course which I suspect most of us know little about.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to make a vid and just state it was random personal musings on anchoring / using a chartplotter rather than promoting it as what the RYA should be teaching but aren't?

(in fairness, I thought anchoring could have been covered better in dayskipper theory, but for different reasons to the OP. I also recognise that (a) it's 15 years since I did dayskipper so things may have changed and (b) for everything that's added, something needs to be dropped and you can't please all of the people all of the time).
 
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