Sail-buying conundrum.

[Becky]

This could be more appropriate for the PBO forum, or equally, the Liveaboard forum. So, to resolve my dilemma, I am posting it here, where all the opinions hang out.
Now HWMBO is oft heard to quote the old adage that 'a good quality sail might cost twice as much as a cheaper sail, but will last three times as long'.
Now, no doubt in great danger of losing a lovely partner, I would like to challenge this statement.
Cornish Maid has a rather beaten-up genoa made by Lucas, I am sure 18 years ago. And it still drives the boat well to windward. 'Course, I don't know what she would go like with a really good sail. But we can outrun similar boats at the moment ( in a test of one experience, which might not be statistically significant).
Anyway, Richard rather fancies a new Hood genoa at about £2500. Now I have read that you should always buy the best sails you can afford, but what is exactly the meaning of the word 'best' in this context.
We could buy a racing laminated and whatever sail for a lot more, or a radial-cut sail for maybe a bit less. Or a straight panel genoa which is cheaper to recut when it stretches. Or we could go to Arun or Crusader or various other sailmakers who would probably charge us less. But to justify an expensive sail, we would really have to have evidence that it would last long enough to justify its cost. So what would the forumites suggest I push for in this difficult situation?

 

[jimi]

Well my perception is that a good quality cruising laminate will not last as long as a good quuality dacron etc but that its shape will last longer. IE Laminate does'nt stretch whereas other fibres will. I bought a cruising laminate Genoa and expect to get 5 years out of it.

 

[claymore]

I also think you should consider the type of sailing you are doing. Is a bomb-proof cruising sail going to serve you better than something with a higher technical spec or vice versa? Probably get shot to bits for saying this but within reason, any new sail is possibly going to make the boat move along better than the old one. I think its a similar scenario to the one dinghy sailors face when fitting titanium bits all over the boat to reduce weight then go and park the crew's bum in the water and lose any advantage. Better to sail the boat a bit better.

 

[jimi]

Two things:
1) A wee bit of extra speed is always nice
2) If a sail keeps its shape the boats sails flatter, does'nt heel as much .. a big plus point with the family (in fact the main reason for the cruising laminate route)

 

[claymore]

Ye..es so I'd be investing in the stuff that would help it - a pad down the luff to help maintain a decent shape after a few seasons on a furler. Are we assuming that the Main is Ok? There's probably not much point in spending shedloads on a Genoa and having a main that is tired so perhaps a matching suit is worth considering?

 

[jimi]

genoa has a tapered padded luff and is cut to 130% rather than 140% The main is ..erm new .. (but only cost me £200;-) ) erm as did a brand new genoa £200 .. £400 for a full brand new set of sails .. and I'd already spent £1400 on the laminate genoa ..still prefer the triradial laminate to the larger crosscut dacron though!

 

[Becky]

The boat is a Moody 37, and the type of sailing we plan to do is long distance cruising; hopefully the Rally Portugal this summer, and possibly on to the Azores. Then the ARC next year. So, my point is should we go for a fully loaded racing genoa, laminate, radial cut etc., or something more simple. What is 'best' in the context of sail design. Will a racing sail costing 3 times as much as an 'ordinsary' sail justify its cost by effectively lasting than 3 times as long.
Obviously we will be going mainly downwind, with hopefully only short spells of windward work. We intend to use twin headsails, maybe a version of the Twistle rig. Depends on how one of our friends got on with his on the last ARC (mentioned in the article in PBO on the last ARC). Richard fancies a Hood genoa, cut in straight panels of 'superior' cloth, while I think we might get something as good (for us) from maybe Arun, who have just made our mainsail.
This is my uncertainty.

 

[Robin]

Becky

I will risk being shouted at for teaching Grandma to suck eggs, but you need some expert advice best obtained from the real experts who make the sails IMO, but do talk to more than one, LIBS is a good place to start if you are going.

For what it is worth I will say what I personally think:

Your existing genoa if 18yrs old is out of shape and hopelessly slow, that is a function of it's age never mind if it was the original sail which would have been a crap shape a few months after first being used anyway, OE sails are strong cheap and stretchy... Your old genny will do as a 2nd downwind headsail though.

For long distance cruising and your size of boat forget laminates and stick to high quality dacron. The ultimate IMO would be either Spectra reinforced dacron 'Hydranet' cloth by Dimension Polyant in Germany or Hood Vectran. Hydranet is available to use by all sailmakers so you are not restricted to Hood (and IMO their inflated prices). Hood will only offer Vectran and will try and put you off Hydranet not surprisingly! The advantage of Spectra in Hydranet is resistance to stretch is very much increased and as it is woven in to the cloth at about 6mm intervals both down and across the cloth it forms a 'net' which makes the cloth very resistant to tearing. We have a Hydranet triradial roller genoa and fully battened Hydranet main from Crusader and they are both superb. Crusader have a number of customers already well on their way RTW with Hydranet sails all reporting back satisfied. I have no experience of Hood Vectran.

High quality dacron should last 10-15 years if looked after and kept out of UV's way as much as possible, if it is Spectra reinforced it will keep a good shape for much more of that lifetime. Laminates will be great for a year or two or three then wham bang buy me another.

If it is not too late, IMO I would have both genoa and main made by the same sailmaker as a matched pair.

Whatever happens you will find a new sail MUCH better.

Best regards

Robin

 

[graham]

Would these be any good? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Second hand sails for sale but may need a valet???possibly some small alterations as well .

 

[BrianJ]

Becky,
Get a quote from an Aussie Sail maker in Phuket.. Rolly Tasker...
guarantee the price will be cheaper and the quality very high...You can then buy several sails.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..
BrianJ

 

[graham]

Brian,on a serious note do you know if Rolly is OK after the Tsunami?

 

[Becky]

Robin, you have expressed my concerns exactly. I have nothing against Hood sails, except their price. At SIBS we got quotes from Hood and one or two other sailmakers, and samples of cloth. I couldn't see much difference between the sample from Arun and the one from Hood, but I am no expert, so this doesn't mean anything. We are not racing, but I like to see our sails setting well. Which they don't now. The boat sails very well, but this is more likely due to a clean bottom and a Brunton folding prop. Sadly; I would rather receive the accolades myself!
Nevertheless a good quality sail will/should be an investment, should cut passage times and reduce healing when on the wind. So getting meals should be easier. Your comment on Crusader Sails is interesting. I had always considered them to be rather at the bottom of the quality scale. I had a Crusader genoa on Solitaire which wasn't up to much. But I don't know how old it was. We are going to the Show on Thursday with quite a shopping list. May see some of the Forumites there perhaps.

 

[Robin]

Becky

I've sent you a PM

I have no relationship with Crusader other than as a very satisfied customer over many sails and years, but I have never bought their basic sails either. You can, as with other lofts, come up with a spec for sails that perform and last well without the designer label price, not cheap but then not astronomical either.

Robin

 

[claymore]

Bombproof would be my choice for a Moody 37. If you are planning an ARC then something that will go the distance and back rather than something that might get you there first would influence my thinking

 

[Oldhand]

I would go along with Richard, A Hood crosscut Vectran genoa is hard to beat for a cruising boat if longetivity and shape retention are important criteria. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[john_morris_uk]

Becky,

I'm not going to disagree with much of what has been written but I can't resist one or two comments.

When we have bought sails in the past, we have trolled round and got quotes from a variety of sailmakers. Hood has always been one of the most expensive. A friend who is in the business as well maintains that they have a quirky pricing policy. Hood do make good sails. They also have contracts with one or two big businesses (I know some of the commercial yachts I sail/teach/examine on use Hood) and so have a steady and assured trade. Their attitude appears to be 'price it high, and although we won't get huge volumes of business, our margins on the fewer sales (sic) will be enough to compensate'.

The important thing is to buy a sail that is suitable for the task in hand. We too are planning to go off into the blue (few years to wait for children/school reasons) and one day will be having new sails.

A triple stitched Dacron radial sail, foam luff, acrylic UV strip, in a good quality cloth from a reputable sailmaker will be on the cards. We might choose a smaller genoa so that we can have a heavier cloth for a wide wind range. For downwind work, the old genoa will be fine (in fact we have two and as you know its the upwind work that shape counts). The real problem with roller genoas is the wind speed range that you want to use them for. Have a good talk to some sailmakers and see what they say.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
A triple stitched Dacron radial sail, foam luff, acrylic UV strip, in a good quality cloth from a reputable sailmaker will be on the cards

[/ QUOTE ]

John

The only thing I might question is the triple stitching? Some people think it is better to leave space for the third row to be added later when and if required. The biggest damage to stitches is chafe and UV, if all 3 rows are out there from day one they will all suffer equally, whereas if the 3rd row is added later it will be a stronger addition. Just a thought to ponder.

Robin

 

[john_morris_uk]

Not a bad thought either!

You pay your money and take your choice I guess.

My experience of stitching is that my sailmaker always seems to find a bit that needs doing! I guess if you were designing a storm jib (which you hope to never use) you'd triple stitch it from the outset. Don't know about the genoa, although what you say seems to make sense. I'll talk to Nick down in Osen when I go to collect my sails and see what he says.

 

[Robin]

Also the stitch holes are nice perforations! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I think perhaps the key might be to have a bigger overlap on the seams to give room for the third row if as and when? But I also seem to remember reading somewhere that modern stitching is better and that what looks like old fashioned zig-zag is in fact multiple stitches ie perhaps 2 stitches per zig and per zag so stronger anyway? This is definitely something to talk over with a sailmaker experienced in long distance sails because what used to be the accepted way in the past may be different now.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I know that when some people say triple stitched they mean three rows of stitching.

However I am told that the best (most?) sail makers now have a machine that produces three stitches on each of the zigs or zags of the zig zag stitching line. I suspect that this is the modern and better way of doing things.