Safety Without Radio

[PeterStone]

You can\'t get away with that!

< if you don't feel confident to make a passage without one there is something wrong with you or your boat, which should be put right before making the passage. >

I'm surprised to see you take an underhand swipe like that. It doesn't matter how well prepared you are, a medical emergency e.g. heart attack, peritonitis or suffering a severe injury would require speedy assistance. How would you summon help and communicate the circumstances without VHF?

Confidence to undertake a passage has little to do with it. It's a very cost effective insurance policy, apart from the other benefits - like being able to talk to harbour masters or, in my case, lock keepers.

 

[Guest]

Listening watch ....

How many times do the words get said - You HAVE to maintain Listening watch .... that is not actually true.

You are ADVISED to keep a listening watch - it is not actually an enforcable requirement ....

I have sailed on many ships as Bridge Watchkeeper where the Master required radar and VHF switched off deep sea - only to be switched on when conditions deteriorate .... gladly those days are over and such Dinosaur Masters have retired .... but it illustrates the point.

Ok - someone will now bellow - Insurance Co. / Court in event of accident etc. etc. ...... didn't change their instructions in those days .....

I can recall on watch one afternoon - sun setting ahead and literally couldn't see a darned thing ... ship - S.T. Linga ... all 320,000 ton of her fully loaded, proceeding west out of Nigeria. Bridge watchman runs in .... ship to starboard bow 3 pts .... close !!!!! So its foot holding the wheel over. phone to engine room - keep engines going don't let trip out .... as we hard a starboard to pass astern of a fruit boat belting out of the sun .... we passed CLOSE .....
You cannot imagine how slow that b.....d felt in turning, a lumbering giant ..... the Fruit Boat appeared oblivious to it all ... One engineer passed Master in alleyway and commented - Boy that was close..... Master was up on bridge so fast his slippers were smouldering. OK 3rd Mate what happened ??
I had to be careful NOT to step in doo-doo's as he was the one who switched the radars and vhf off that morning when we sailed .... and his instructions were to leave off unless etc. His reply to me was - You won't do that again will you lad ....

He was a right old coot .... if you switched the VHF or Radar on - he would hear and be up like a shot asking what was wrong ... and why you were trusting some electronic gadget ....

/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[Solitaire]

Re: Wide audience ....

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot remember the actual words - but there is something about use of the apparatus under the guidance of a Licenced operator the exception in Emergency situation ...

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two situations where a VHF radio may be used without an operators certificate. Both these situations are clearly set out in the booklet that normally accompanies the issue of the new ships radio licence. Here is the exact wording.

No 9 subsection 3 - The provision of 9 (ii) - that is the statement pertaining to having a valid operators licence or under direct personal supervision - shall not apply to persons using channels M (157.850 Mhz) and M2 (161.425 Mhz)

No 10. Notwithsatnding the terms set out in Clause 8, in the event of an emergency where there is a risk to life, the radio equipment may be used by any person to summon assitance.

The above extract was taken directly from the booklet issued by Ofcom.

 

[Mirelle]

Rats! Foiled again!

Perfectly good point, Peter. But, by extension, one should never leave house without a mobile for just the same reasons. I suppose most of us don't. On a personal note I had a heart problem some years ago and I did collapse in the street twice, so I was zealous about that, but although this has now cleared up completely I still feel naked without the mobile.

 

[Mirelle]

Ah, yes, burning spots in the screen.

I know a REALLY silly story about old coots switching the radar off, involving a modern cruise ship with a couple of thousand pax on board, but I don't want to get PBO sued, so I should not say more! I really did have dealings with an engineer super who could not see why a screen with a hole burned in it needed replacing when the rest of the screen was perfectly good - plumbers are like that!

 

[Mirelle]

OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

It has been great fun as a wind up, and a lot of good points have been made.

The truth is that, having a very small child, for the last couple of seasons our sailing has been very restricted, entirely within mobile phone range, in a boat well able to cross an ocean, so I saved the licence fee. I will now go and buy one.

But I don't guarantee to leave the thing on!

 

[Guest]

Re: Ah, yes, burning spots in the screen.

Had many a burial at sea of Magnetrons labelled .... Used but Good ...... if it was good - why is it collecting dust in a cupboard amongst the ... Used and only for emergency ones !!!
Must admit old habits die hard .... still keep batterys from one use to put in another .... often you find a radio or tape player will have low batterys - so you replace, the batterys still able to give a bit on a less demanding item ... Where di I learn that ? Shell Tankers UK ...... remember arguing with Dry-Dock Super about his striking off my stores list D Cell batterys ... and then next day demanding a box load for his 'Beam Gun' flashlight to inspect tanks .... The flashlight literally emptied my stock .... leaving us naff-all to work with.

Sorry STUK ..... but its true !!

 

[oldharry]

Re: Exactly my position

Thanks Mireille, but unfortunately I knew to within a quarter mile where he was, having only lost visual contact with him in the mist, less than 15 minutes before the accident. Yachts are not the best life saving platform by a long stroke, I agree, but.....

I have to say I detect a degree of naivety in some of the responses here: ranging from 'if things go wrong I will do this, this and this' - as though emergencies are pre-planned and can be managed accordingly, to the complacent 'it hasnt happened in twenty years, so I dont need to bother about it' - as well as some good solid common sense.

I have never fallen overboard, so have never actually needed a life jacket in 40 years sailing. That did not stop me from replacing them for this season. The VHF on the other hand has been a key safety factor on 3 separate occasions in that time; the above incident when life was lost, evacuation of a seriously ill child from the boat, and a broken rudder a mile off a lee shore..... So for me, statistically the VHF has been more important the lifejackets.

Seamanship we are told is about being prepared. The ability to contact the emergency services by their preferred means seems to me to be part of that - even if you never actually have to.

 

[broadcaster]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

[ QUOTE ]
I will now go and buy one.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was right DAS BOOT is working for Offcom or a VHF manufacturer, somebody is now going to buy a VHF and licence as a result of these posts.

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

I dont work for either vodafone or ofcom. Incedently I have purchaced a DCS vhf although I have not installed it yet. The whole issue re ofcom was resolved in another post. In one of my previous reply's I conceded that it would be silly not to carry a vhf as a matter of principal. Having conceded these points does not however change my mind that the principal means of summoning help should in the first instance be my mobile (inshore) or epirb (offshore). I have never intimated that I would not at some stage need to summon help I am only differing on the method. Basicly what I am trying to say is dont rely on the VHF it produces a false sense of security.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

[ QUOTE ]
that the principal means of summoning help should in the first instance be my mobile (inshore) or epirb (offshore).

[/ QUOTE ]Consider filling in the CG66 form with the coastguard which gives details of your craft, shore contact phone numbers and equipment carried. Then, if they get an EPIRB alert or an iffy phone call from you they will have all your details on file. Furthermore, you can phone the details of your passage to the CG before leaving. If going blue-water you want Falmouth CG. After programming Falmouth into my mobile and sat phone I called them to check that the programming was OK.

 

[Mirelle]

Last word - the dangers of mobile phones

I've just seen this report into the grounding of the chemical tanker "Attilio Ievoli" in the Solent in "Lloyd's List" for Monday:

"POOR bridge management, with the master distracted by his mobile telephone from navigational duties, led to the grounding of a laden chemical tanker in the west Solent, a Marine Accident Investigation Branch report has concluded.

The grounding occurred when the master of the Italian registered 6,239 dwt Attilio Ievoli elected to take the Marnavi-owned ship through the west Solent and Needles channel between the Isle of Wight and the Hampshire coast after dropping the pilot, who had taken the ship from Fawley.

There is no pilotage service available for this channel, with larger and deep draught ships invariably using the passage to the east of the island.

Additionally, the company instructions provided for ships to use the east Solent, but the master hoped to save four hours by the “short cut” on his way to Spain.

After the pilot had been dropped the master was conning the vessel on autopilot and the ship evidently drifted northward out of the channel until it grounded, causing bottom plate indentation forward but no hull penetration. The ship was laden with toluene and styrene monomer, but there was no leakage of cargo or bunkers and the vessel eventually refloated on the tide.

The report suggested that there had been poor bridge team management and an inappropriate division of tasks between master, second officer, cadet and the vessel’s chief engineer, who had been occupying one of the two seats at the navigational console.

It appeared that the second officer, who discovered that the ship was to the northward of the track, tried to alert the master, who was occupied on his mobile phone at the critical moment.

Recommendations by the MAIB included the provision of VTS and pilotage for the western Solent, better buoyage and others relating to bridge team management."

What more can one say?

 

[broadcaster]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont work for either vodafone or ofcom. Incedently I have purchaced a DCS vhf although I have not installed it yet. The whole issue re ofcom was resolved in another post. In one of my previous reply's I conceded that it would be silly not to carry a vhf as a matter of principal. Having conceded these points does not however change my mind that the principal means of summoning help should in the first instance be my mobile (inshore) or epirb (offshore). I have never intimated that I would not at some stage need to summon help I am only differing on the method. Basicly what I am trying to say is dont rely on the VHF it produces a false sense of security.

[/ QUOTE ]

So given every argument and evidence proves that the VHF is the main source for summoning help and there has not been a single argument for the mobile, you stubbonly insist that the mobile is the way to go. You think the VHF produces a false sense of security, why is this exactly compared the sense of security you get form your mobile.

As the first point of assistance is the usually the coast guard and they ask you to use the VHF you should do so. They SPECIFICALLY state the mobile should be used if the VHF doesn't work. So regardless of what your views are the CG has systems in place to handle VHF in a more efficient manner. Why are you too stubborn to realise this. As you will have a mobile with you, you can always revert to it if the VHF doesn't work. As for the fact you have DSC now, this will send details of your boat, location if connected to GPS, type of emergency and will send it to a wide group of people, this all in the space of a couple of seconds. The potential range is further than a standard VHF due to the type of signal. None of this can be done with a mobile, so listen to sense.

You really are an idiot if you set off an EPRIB before trying your VHF (if the situation allows it). Although we seem to be going in circle, an EPIRB is a one way form of communication. Do you have an idea of the sort of rescue operation you could trigger with an EPIRB becuase they have no idea of what the emergency is. If you just need minor assistance you could be putting other lives at risk because you have tied up the rescue services. Also as you don't know the mobile numbers of any potential boats around you when offshore (and there are no base stations for mobiles to work if not using a sat phone) you can't contact them. Have you ever heard of a Mayday relay, this is when a greater distance is covered by using other boats to relay the message. I would agree that a sat phone would be better off shore, but you are talking about standard mobiles.

You really shouldn't expect any help from the emergency services if you are too stubborn to listen to what they tell you and refuse to follow their advice.

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

In the first place the EPIRB is used in extremis.

If I need minor assistance I will phone a friend and not the emergency services.

Do you know what a survival situation is. It means your life is at immediate risk.
This is when you activate your EPIRB this is the purpose of the EPIRB.

I believe the CG etc give this advise because there are so many calls that waste their time they need to screen them.

I would rather phone a dedicated number and know that someone will answer if I need help.

Last year a yacht and crew set sail from Ireland. After getting into difficulty while in the Irish sea after using VHF and flares they eventualy set light to the boat all to no avail. They drifted I think for 7 or 8 days (in liferaft) eventualy they managed to summon help HOW mobile phone. If they had an EPIRB they would have been saved withing 12 hrs.

PLEASE EXPLAIN

 

[Anonymous]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

[quoteYou really are an idiot if you set off an EPRIB before trying your VHF (if the situation allows it).

[/ QUOTE ]I totally disagree. When you are in distress - i.e. "In grave and imminent danger and require immediate assistance" you should make distess signals in all appropriate ways. If you are short-handed you might well actuate the EPIRB before making a manual VHF call if you are needed to attend to something else which is even more urgent - e.g. firefighting, stopping bleeding, plugging a hole.

 

[Mike_Martin]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

Well he doesn't work for me! Maybe he will be my replacement.

Mike

 

[Guest]

there are always exceptions

No matter what situation, no matter what equipment - there will always be situations that can be brought up to support one bias or another.

But there is one fact that cannot be twisted or ignored : I have seen no GSM Telephone antennaes out at sea !

Second - EPIRB ..... Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon ..... will call out Nimrod's, Helicopters, Lifeboats etc. etc. in the simple act of not differentiating between emergencies .... The epirb was developed for serious use out in oceans and away from land etc. I may be wrong in my opinion - but do not feel the average yottie ventures sufficient for justification of fitment to pride and joy.
If we take a passage from Solent to Gibraltar for example .... VHF contact even across the Bay of Biscay will most likely still be possible, if not shore station but the ships / yachts plying the bay .... so relay or DSC saves you .... Cross N.Sea and similar again .... in fact around UK / Europe waters - you really are well supported by VHF ......

 

[Anonymous]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

Not specifically addressed to you, but since you are fond of the EPIRB and won't be getting any training on them...

 

[broadcaster]

Re: OK, I surrender. Will come quietly.

[ QUOTE ]
In the first place the EPIRB is used in extremis.

If I need minor assistance I will phone a friend and not the emergency services.

Do you know what a survival situation is. It means your life is at immediate risk.
This is when you activate your EPIRB this is the purpose of the EPIRB.

I believe the CG etc give this advise because there are so many calls that waste their time they need to screen them.

I would rather phone a dedicated number and know that someone will answer if I need help.


Last year a yacht and crew set sail from Ireland. After getting into difficulty while in the Irish sea after using VHF and flares they eventualy set light to the boat all to no avail. They drifted I think for 7 or 8 days (in liferaft) eventualy they managed to summon help HOW mobile phone. If they had an EPIRB they would have been saved withing 12 hrs.

PLEASE EXPLAIN

[/ QUOTE ]

I and others have explained, but you refuse to listen.

Right, you say the EPIRB should be used for extreme circumstances, Exactly so if you need minor help and are in a position to call for it and are off shore what do you do. If you haven't got a sat phone you will use the VHF to see if you can raise somebody. If you don't have a VHF you can't do that and a normal mobile won't work. Fortunately you've seen sense and bought one.

What on earth are you talking about, phone a friend. Do you have friends up and down the coast who can help you at the drop of a hat and giove you a tow or fly over and pick up a casualty. If your in a boat you will probably need help from other boats, the CG or lifeboat and they request VHF contact. So is your friend meant to phone somebody else for help for you adding a delay.

I know what survival means, but you stated the EPIRB is the first method of contact Off Shore, you made it quite clear you would do this and didn't say extreme situation. I actually said "if circumstances allow" use the VHF and somebody could be a couple of miles away and be able to reach you. They won't know about your EPIRB and are unlikey to be able to get a message from the emergency services to help you. You need to let as many people know you need help as possible.

No the coastguard gave this advice because it is the best method. Looking at the CG statistics the CG had 12,518 calls for help, of them 129 people used mobiles are were unsure of their location. The CG could not use a direction search to locate the casualty and had to approach mobile operators to do a cell search. Sometimes this was refused, but in BOTH cases there was an increased delay in getting the information and being able to give assistance. You can read all this on the www.mcga.gov.uk website. Is this clear enough indication as to why they prefer VHF & DSC. Obviously if you don't have VHF or it doesn't work use a mobile as a second form of comm's

Why phone a number when you can call quickly and over a longer distance to more people upto 30 miles for a VHF compared to a lot less for a mobile. Again have a look at the mcga website under SAR coverage.

Please listen to this, I am not saying don't use an EPIRB or a mobile, but the VHF should be used in the 1st instance and if it doesn't work use the other methods. I also didn't tell you not to take a mobile so this example if completely pointless. I could give you loads of examples when a VHF has saved lives because mobiles don't work, but that is not the argument. We are talking about the intial method for contact. I can also give you another example, if your overseas and you need to call for help who do you call. If you call Falmouth they will have to relay back to services in your location, surely you can understand that using DSC or the international Ch16 would possibly put you in direct contact with local assistance. If it doesn' work use the phone, a carrier pigeon or anything, but give it a try.

Please explain now why you still think the mobile is the number one form and give some evidence rather than just dismissing the arguments.

Perhaps somebody else can reply, we have had two former RNLI members explain, maybe somebody else can have a go. I give up.

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: there are always exceptions

So there we have it Luddites versus modern. The luddites wont have an EPIRB now that is worse than not having a VHF.

When you are struggling to survive you wont care if an American battle fleet arrives to save you.

How do you think they saved Mr Bullimore.
Do you think he was chattering to the Australian navy on his VHF!