Safety at sea

[cameronke]

A relatively fortunate out come for the crew of the ketch "The Spirit" is reported this morning. The crew from the vessel reported that they had been hit by a wave which had fractured the hull (!!!!!!) and that they were taking water.

An RAF spokesman said the crew had been well organised despite the danger the motor yacht could sink at any moment.

He said: "They had all the equipment they needed, they had a beacon, they knew where they were and had communications and they were all wearing survival suits. A coastguard spokesman praised the crew for remaining calm and described the rescue 200 miles NW of Stornoway as a text book operation

In stark contrast is what appeared to be a family out fishing that I passed on Sunday afternoon about a mile off Toward Point, Clyde.

About nine people in a boat about the size and construction of a Drascombe (but no sails or mast). The occupants ranged from a child of about three years old to a pensioner and not one life jacket between them!!! Of course it always happens to someone else and will never happen to them. Gave me quite a chill though....

Regards to all
Cameron


<hr width=100% size=1>Work to live, live to sail

 

[Peter_Chennell]

I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

Many of you will know of Sea Check, our free safety equipment advisory service, and many will know of the talks we do at clubs etc. Similar numbers may have seen our Roadshows at major boating events, shows and jumbles.

But we’re not connecting with some sea users, and Cameron’s post highlights the very problem we face. There is a group of sea users who have no basic safety knowledge at all. Not just about equipment, but even simple knowledge about tides that go in and out, and up and down, as well as side to side! We try and talk to them about basic, simple boating safety when they launch their craft – no interest; and when they are recovering their boat they still are hard to talk to.

Yet the RNLI is seeing increasing numbers of call-outs (calls-out?) to this group, and the recent tragic incident on Loch Ryan emphasised the need to get people to understand that the sea can kill you. Not everybody who launches a small boat is at risk through lack of basic safety equipment and knowledge, but a worrying number are.

We’ve thought about ads in the places where these small, often cheap boats are sold – Exchange & Mart, FreeAds etc, but are really struggling to develop an effective, measurable programme.

We don’t have the exclusivity on good ideas, nor on wisdom or experience – can any of the posters and lurkers on this forum help??

The question is “How do we communicate Safety messages to unaffiliated groups of people who use the sea in small craft from slipways and launching sites?”


<hr width=100% size=1>Peter Chennell
Sea Safety Manager - RNLI

 

[jac]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

You probably already do this but at many of the more popular launching sites you need to pay a fee to either launch or park trailer/car.

That must give you an "official" link in through whoever collects the fee. Can they give out leaflets etc.

Also in connection to the leaflets are they actually read? I haven't seen one for several months but they seemed rather bland. Certainly don't make a striking enough impact.

Can the leaflets be tailored to different sections of the boating public. Your "lads in a speedboat" would probably respond better to something hard hitting (horrific pictures of dead bodies maybe) and maybe do something about it rather than your elderly gentlemen off fishing who would probably not look beyond the first corpse.

What about radio. People driving to the coast are likely to be listening to car radios - can messages (paid for or not) be broadcast - I know that BBC have "community" type messages and campaigns even on national radio.

Key is tailoring the message. "Boat Uses" are not an amorphous lot. What works to butters (who ofc are all responsible, highly skilled, intelligent and safe seamen) will not work with Essex Man on his jetski.

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[halcyon]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

Have you tried Eastenders or Cori or one of the other soups. New spin on a disaster story line, which would be directed at the what's safety group who watch the soaps.
Just a thought for a new angle.

Brian

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[Peter_Chennell]

Bright ideas flooding in!!

Thanks for that.

Certainly we’ve addressed the issue of the leaflet – we’re in the throes of producing a new one that, instead of encouraging take-up of SEA Check, gives 5 basic safety messages.

All the other points are good, too. Inevitably their suitability is one of the cost vs impact examination, but your point about “tone of voice” is one we recognise. When I get the all the comments from this forum (thanks for being the first) I’ll kick them around with the team.

We’re currently getting a lot of air time on radio at the moment as a result of some press releases we’ve put out, but our research seems to show that the “bangs per buck” of radio is poor.

We had this clever idea of talking to people in motorway service areas, figuring that, apart from the slipway, this was the only place where this group congregated. Nope – completely wrong. Only interested in getting back on the road.


<hr width=100% size=1>Peter Chennell
Sea Safety Manager - RNLI

 

[Peter_Chennell]

Excellent!!

Right audience, right material. I'll give it a go.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peter Chennell
Sea Safety Manager - RNLI

 

[StugeronSteve]

Re: Bright ideas flooding in!!

Where slip ways are manned, and fees charged, would it not be possible to encourage the operators, to only allow craft to be launched if equiped with buoyancy aids and flares etc?

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[cameronke]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

What an excelent idea Halcyon

I had been thinking that often the problem is the "Macho" culture. I see it in engineering; I dont need safety glasses, hard hat, safety shoes etc etc when operating machinery.

My brother is of this ilk. I took him, his wife and my gilfriend sailing on Sunday. When I went ashore to pick them up in the tender the first thing I did was give each a lifejacket but he "didn`t need one as it was such a nice day". As the skipper I should have insisted that no lifejacket no sail but I took one along for him anyway. As an engineer, one of my tasks is to carry out risk assesments, to identify and address hazards.

A good graphic story line in a soap would very well illustrate the potential perils in a much more effective way than a roadside/slipway lecture in my opinion.

Except that I for one never watch soaps

regards
Cameron

<hr width=100% size=1>Work to live, live to sail

 

[duncan]

Re: Bright ideas flooding in!!

Peter,
I think you have a huge task ahead of you given the range of the risks represented.
Given that all of the following are going to be factors - practical experience of skipper, local knowledge, boats 'condition', safety equipement, (over)loading, weather and use of craft ; it would take a significant time for you to even establish the one or two key areas of risk to assist, guide etc each craft. Minimum 30 minute chat which people aren't going to wait around for. Busy launching sites will be turning over a launch every few minutes in the summer and they don't have holding facilities to facilitate your work either.
Suggestions -
(1) get the key messages down to a basic checlist type thing and get the launch sites to localise and distribute as people launch - the Sea Safe stuff had too many pictures and small text and wasn't localised. Maybe 2 sides - one focusing generally on the craft the other on local risk issues. The latter could be compliled by local RNLI stations and I would envisage Poole including (a) Harbour limits and no wake zones (b) the training bank (c) harbour entrance conditions (d) Pevril and St Albans races (e) no petrol on the quay at Weymouth (f) harbour control on VHF channel 14 (g) Portland CGs phone number etc
(2) Consider monitoring activity at launch sites with specific reference to overloading. I know this may not be popular but someone has a responsibility and you should be able to pass the info on to that authority. In Europe they seem particularily hot on this with vessels simply not being allowed to set off - surely we can put something together to reduce these incidents?
Keep up the good work but you are after the one thing that people won't give you when they are travelling or launching their boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Peter_Chennell]

Re: Bright ideas flooding in!!

Yes, we tried that unsuccessfully, and sort of gave up. We met 'jobsworths' who told their employers (the Councils) that handing out leaflets wasn't in their Job Description, and the Councils didn't want to go the route of changing JDs and having to negotiate a pay rise; we met slipway owners who said, flatly, that it was not their problem; and we met resistance in various shapes and forms everywhere else.

One to add to the list, though - thank you.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peter Chennell
Sea Safety Manager - RNLI

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

I read your post about 20 minutes ago. I have been mulling it over. I don't like what I keep coming back to as it is against my beliefs for our sport.

But it includes fines for non compliance and basic sea sense test.

I am sorry, I can not condone my idea because the fact I am thinking like this is making me a total hypocrite. But there is a certain element that the only way to get them to listen is to threaten to hurt their pockets!

Here is an example from this weekend. On Saturday we anchored outside the harbour for a couple of hours to watch the boats coming in and out. It was far to nice to go in so early. The Harbour Master had launched the fast ‘Dory’ and was patrolling the shoreline, occasionally pulling alongside skiers or jetski’s telling them to go offshore if they wanted to go fast (500m from shore speeding). The area is buoyed where water skiing is prohibited. The launch looks like a police car, no really, red yellow checkers all over.

Behind me two jetskis flew out of the harbour and on seeing him slowed right down. I heard one say to the other, ooh best go slow the police boat is out. This means they ‘knew’ the rules and will always flaunt them as long as they think they can get away with them.

This is my point, there are rules, local bye laws and merchant shipping acts etc. No one enforces them, the CG / RNLI / responsible boat users all end up picking up the pieces. This is not the RNLI’s domain though, they are not a legal body.

So it must the Harbour Master, it is time that the harbour master stopped giving launching permits to anyone who walks into the office. Maybe a checklist should be signed before a permit is issued. He should also carry out random inspections. Do you have lifejackets, means of communication, alternative propulsion (ever seen a speed boat with oars or a jet ski with a paddle?).

I am against licensing and compulsory training, so this is against all I believe, but I saw 11 people trundling up and down the harbour on Sunday in a 19ft open sailing boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>

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[BrendanS]

Not wishing to detract from spirit of thread! but are you aware it wasn't a ketch at all, but Alan Priddy, in what used to be called Spirit of Cardiff (big rib) off on another transatlantic record attempt. Lots of mis information in the news around it. Seems like they struck something that ripped inflatable collar off hull, as well as maybe fracturing hull. One hell of a wave, or possibly something more solid?

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[halcyon]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

Neither do I, but it has the big advatage of being free, if you can sell it, and it covers a few million people.

All the best.

Brian

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[AndrewB]

Nanny statedom

Totally non-PC I know, but I think some people deserve what they get. Ultimately, its their responsibility to act sensibly, but also their choice not to. At least with sailing you generally tend to put yourself most at risk, not other people. (Yes, I know, "what about the kiddies").

It's quite appropriate for MCA and RNLI to be proactive in offering support and training for those who might wish it, but not at the risk of becoming too intrusive or even overly helpful to those who do not.


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[Evadne]

Re: Nanny statedom

The problem is that it's not just the skipper putting his (or her) life at risk. Anyone going out with them is putting their trust in the skipper's ability. The less they know, the more trusting they have to be. The other problem, especially with small, fast power boats is that their pilots tend to want to show off and stay near land, which makes them dangerous to everyone else, from yachts to swimmers.

Otherwise I agree with your sentiment, that the RNLI may be attempting an impossible task. People only listen when they want to and there are a few categories of people who will never listen: There is the "can't walk and chew gum" brigade, who are never going to listen 'cos safety is nothing to do with fishing (or whatever); the young bucks who see speeding on a jetski as no different to tearing up the local bypass on their mopeds - they see their dad speeding in the family car but slowing down for speed traps, and moaning about gatsos, and have learnt from him that this is acceptable behaviour.

Trying to educate these folk before they kill themselves or someone else is laudable, but may be impossible. I wish the RNLI the best of luck, and hope that they get through to some of them at least.


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[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

Perhaps a word to the insurance companies along the lines of 10% off with written proof of RNLI Sea Safety Check in last 3 months or some such. Again, hits them in the pockets if they don't do it. Better than 10% off for RYA members perhaps?

<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[duncan]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

Agree the principle Andrew but generally Sea Check is a state of mind rather than purely the existence of safety items on a boat and therefore the 3 months (or any timescale really) isn't relevant.
Many of these craft clearly aren't insured either, and I think I would rather that they were, at a reasonable price, than they stop because it gets 'too expensive'!
Inevitably it is the once or twice a year boaters new to the venue and with there own and maybe another family in tow that represent a significant risk, although we also see many fully equipped but clearly clueless departures from the slip during the summer.

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Mirelle]

Captain Bligh, Gwyneth Dunwoody, and ragworms

Dunwoody's Transport Select Committee gave the head of the MCA an almighty pasting over the increasing loss of life amongst such idiots, so maybe the MCA will get round to doing something, but the likehood of the MCA coming out of their radio control room bunkers and putting men in watch stations with binoculars again seems very remote.

My only useful thought, beyond endorsing the brilliant notion for "killing off" actors who want to leave soap operas by drowning them from inflatable beach toys, getting them caught by the rising tide whilst cockling, trapped at the foot of cliffs by the rising tide, sucked down by quicksands and blowing them out to sea aboard angling boats with dead outboards, is that sea anglers often buy bait, hooks and line and rather a small number of shops supply these.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[AlexL]

Re: I’d appreciate any bright ideas.

Blimey, I think you've got a very hard task. Unfortunately, virtually by definition, the only people who would ask for a sea check, or listen to safety advice, are those who have allready considered it, i.e not the section of the boating community causing the problem.
Although there doesn't appear to be any clear cut solution, I think there are methods which may help, and methods which may hinder.
Looking at the police attitude to speeding and the public perception thereof would seem to indicate that blind adherance to a set of rules which have not come from a proper scientific risk assesment, is definately not the way to go. To use the same example, now that some speed cameras are being targeted at genuine blackspots, and some 20 mph limits are in genuine risk areas, nobody wants to know, the perception is cast, the damage done by previous actions.
I feel that any form of "rules" or "registration" or "licensing" would ulitmately have this effect and be box ticking and not really improve safety.
However perhaps some check lists at launching sites, and when boats are purchased would be a good idea. Why not look at the accident stats and pick on only 2 or 3 absolute key issues and put these on a sign which is more likely to be read than a check list of 50 things? (for the engineers and statisticians the pareto 80/20 rule means these few issues should cater for most of the risks).
Finally, much as I hate to admit it, nothing really makes people sit up and take notice like the risk of prosecution, surely council employees, launchin sites, and yes, even skippers have a duty of care, if someone is killed in a reasonably forseable accident (i.e child not wearing a life jacket, knocked out , falls in, drowns) then prosecute them, that is what the law and courts are for. Using the law to prosecute the people guilty of failing their care will be far more effective than just creating some rules and then prosecuting people for failing to meet them.
There will allways be some ar****holes but there are also those who don't actually know that they are doing anything wrong, and those who wil change their mind when the consequences start appearing in the press.

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[AndrewB]

\"If not duffer, won\'t drown\".

>>Dunwoody's Transport Select Committee gave the head of the MCA an almighty pasting over the increasing loss of life amongst such idiots<<

This is exactly the mindset that I rail against, that somehow holds the MCA (and to a lesser extent the RNLI) "to blame" for every accident on and by the sea: a charge to which these organisations can only respond by becoming nannying harridans.

Some duffers are best drowned. Even Jesus doesn't save those who don't seek their own salvation.