'Safe' Boats

Fire99

Fire99

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I hear frequently about boats being tough 'safe' boats, but what actually makes the boat 'safe'?
Will a fast performance-based cruiser fall to pieces in the ocean? or is it down to them being quite flighty with more risk of the crew falling overboard etc?

Any thoughts?
 
I agree, a strange idea of what is 'safe'. If a sailing boat can't sail off a lee shore then is it a 'safe' boat even if it's strongly built and dry? Easier to say what's an unsafe boat IMHO - a boat that broaches easily and can't cope with being overcanvased - within reason. But so much is down to the skill and experience of the crew.
 
The Lazy Kipper said:
I agree, a strange idea of what is 'safe'. If a sailing boat can't sail off a lee shore then is it a 'safe' boat even if it's strongly built and dry? Easier to say what's an unsafe boat IMHO - a boat that broaches easily and can't cope with being overcanvased - within reason. But so much is down to the skill and experience of the crew.
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Yeah interesting stuff. Personally, I'd rather a boat that is solid (so won't break up), drains water well (so doesn't fill up with water too easily and sink) but moves around a bit and can turn a fair pace.

So long as the boat will survive, I like to think it's my responsibility not to fall off even it it's moving around quite a bit.

Is that still technically defined as a 'safe' boat though?
 
Fire99 said:
Is that still technically defined as a 'safe' boat though?
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Like many words in the English language when used in conjunction with another word, it means whatever you want it to mean.

There is no clear definition of safe, except that it is not unsafe and the word boat covers such an enormous range of real objects, used in an equally large range of contexts, that putting the two together can never have a single unambiguous meaning.

It can, however in its comparative form (safer and less safe) be used to convey some kind of information, provided you have a common datum point for the comparison!

So, "X is a safer boat because...." does have some meaning but "X is a safe boat..." has no real meaning.
 
Safe boat

We bought a boat for the local sea scouts some years back. A very ordinary 20 ft fin keel fibreglass boat.
It is actually incredibly safe compared to the boats the scouts used from years back. Open rowing/sailing boats with huge gaff.
The modern boats IMHO opinion took a huge leap forward with self righting and self draining cockpits. Such that i would suggest this type of boat could cope with anything. Being robustly built for its weight it is not easily damaged in a grounding or collision.
So provided the crew are sensible and don't fall off or get injured in a collision (and duck under the boom) I can't see these kids getting into danger in this boat. That was bought 20 years ago, they bought another one identical and the young kids still learn a lot in a safe boat.
My own boat is similar but much lighter with more sail so higher performance. When overpowered it won't go to windward but otherwise it just leans over "show us yer keel" but I think is safe provided you hang on. Reefing and jib reduction brings it back to a gentle boat in strong winds. So a performance boat doesn't have to be unsafe. Just needs more judgement in sail selection. olewiull
 
William_H said:
We bought a boat for the local sea scouts some years back. A very ordinary 20 ft fin keel fibreglass boat.
It is actually incredibly safe compared to the boats the scouts used from years back. Open rowing/sailing boats with huge gaff.
The modern boats IMHO opinion took a huge leap forward with self righting and self draining cockpits. Such that i would suggest this type of boat could cope with anything. Being robustly built for its weight it is not easily damaged in a grounding or collision.
So provided the crew are sensible and don't fall off or get injured in a collision (and duck under the boom) I can't see these kids getting into danger in this boat. That was bought 20 years ago, they bought another one identical and the young kids still learn a lot in a safe boat.
My own boat is similar but much lighter with more sail so higher performance. When overpowered it won't go to windward but otherwise it just leans over "show us yer keel" but I think is safe provided you hang on. Reefing and jib reduction brings it back to a gentle boat in strong winds. So a performance boat doesn't have to be unsafe. Just needs more judgement in sail selection. olewiull
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Thanks for that. You know what I mean, you often hear these terms banded about with yachts.. 'Good Safe Sea boat' etc and you wonder, what makes it safer than one that...isn't?

If I ever can afford to change the 'mighty' Snapdragon, I'd quite fancy something that's exciting to sail and a bit frisky but isn't likely to risk sinking or falling over if I take her across the oceans.
 
One that can sail 1000 miles across the Pacific Ocean with only a feathered crew?

med_Catamaran_abandoned_Richard_Woods.jpg
 
Fire99 said:
I hear frequently about boats being tough 'safe' boats, but what actually makes the boat 'safe'?
Will a fast performance-based cruiser fall to pieces in the ocean? or is it down to them being quite flighty with more risk of the crew falling overboard etc?

Any thoughts?
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Traditional thinking says a heavy long keeler,soundly built with an easy to handle rig. BUT many boats completely unlike this have circumnavigated or made ocean passages. The boat,of whatever type is usually better than the crew!
 
.
~ Solidly constructed
~ High-ish AVS (if a mono)
~ Low downflooding risk (safe windows etc)
~ Good maintenance record, rigging 'in date' etc
~ Adequate safety equipment and spares carried
~ Experienced skipper with head screwed on

- W
 
Fire99 said:
Thanks for that.. but why? What makes a Heavy Long Keeler safe as opposed to a fin keeler?
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The keel CANNOT fall off.

Leaving aside the human element (crew-capability and boat-maintenance), the answer to your question is in fact the sum of a series of answers to a series of questions revolving around purpose, design and construction:
- hull
- rig
- sails
- engine
- plumbing
- electric
- above decks layout
- below desks layout
etc

My 45yr old plywood Gul dinghy (12ft, gunter rig) is a safe boat. Ian Proctor, of Wayfarer fame, designed it to teach his own children to sail; and I have never managed to capsize it.

My 29yr old Vancouver 27 is also a safe boat. Aside from the obvious, ie its heavily-laid up GRP long-keel encapsulated lead ballast hull, everything else about it is robustly specified and constructed: eg its mast is thicker section and its standing-rigging one size bigger diameter than normally found on modern yachts of comparable size.

One particular thing that contributes to the safety of the Vancouver 27 is that its traditional hull/keel configuration makes for a steadier, more comfortable motion, which means that the crew is less likely to be incapacitated by seasickness in heavy weather, and the boat will be much easier to sail - won't broach in gusts, etc.

No boat is, however, absolutely safe.
 
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Fire99 said:
I hear frequently about boats being tough 'safe' boats, but what actually makes the boat 'safe'?
Will a fast performance-based cruiser fall to pieces in the ocean? or is it down to them being quite flighty with more risk of the crew falling overboard etc?

Any thoughts?
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I agree with Tranona that it seems impracticable to define what is 'safe', so excluding what is not. OTOH, perhaps we might get somewhere is we agree ( ? ) on a number of points which make/contribute towards making a boat being 'unsafe'...?

Here's a few:

Gas stowage drains into the hull and not over the side.

Throughhull fittings corroded and seacocks seized.

Fire extinguishers long out of date

Hull integrity compromised by rot/corrosion/ill-repaired damage.

Critical fastenings - keelbolts, shroudbolts, mast step, rigging - weakened by corrosion or brittle fracture.

Rudder fastenings severely worn/loose.

Rigging components weakened by unfair bending, stress corrosion, brittle fracture.​

I'm confident there are more. ;)
 
Many thanks for all your replies and observations..

I'd like to leave equipment like fire extinguishers and dodgy maintenance (corroded sea-cocks, failing rigging etc) out of the picture as that's not the boat design's fault. That's owner / age issues.

I can see the argument regarding long keels against fin keels. As you say, a Long moulded in Keel can't fall off where as technically a bolted on Fin keel.... can.

It's the boats basic design that interests me and what makes people designate one a 'safer sea boat' as opposed to another, by design.

For example, I would guess a boat with large flat windows on the beam would have greater potential to have the windows knocked out by a heavy wave, and a boat without a self-draining cockpit would have a greater potential to flood.

(i'll leave MOBO's out of it as that makes things far too complicated) :)
 
Robin said:
Closed minds reinforced by constant brainwashing. They aren't.
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Well on that score, that's another 'feature' to leave out.

I'm struggling with this 'safe boat' definition now. :)

OK, someone tell me, by design, a mono-hull cruiser that is NOT safe to cross the Ocean (with an average Skipper, not Knox Johnston or Ellen Macarthur)?
 
Fire99 a good start is to read Total Loss - preferably all the editions issued so far as each edition has new stories.

However, reading any edition will soon demonstrate that all boat styles are potentially unsafe: they blow up, they get holed, they get smashed into pieces against hard things, things fall off with serious consequences, they fill with water from invisible holes, they burst into flames. Very rarely do they get overwhelmed by the sea in storms.

If you want a good material that a yacht should be made from, then in my opinion, its steel any day. Steel yachts have been rammed, pounded, slammed, scoured and dropped with massive structural damage but have not holed. In these extreme situations wood, cement and GRP would not have survived. A steel round bilge has been shown to be very robust against ice crushing; tending to rise on the ice.

It would be well to keep in mind the vessels sailed by Shackleton and Bligh after they lost their ships to keep in context what can be safe and unsafe.
 
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