Sad case of deaths at sea.....not keeping watch

[Gary Fox]

As you have quoted me in your 'dangerous out there', 'not bothered to learn the basics of the colregs' and 'unable to apply basic reading skills or logic' post I feel I must respond.

I never suggested the boat was NUC. I suggested it was RAM, which is quite different and would display different lights. Now whether it is RAM or not is debatable, but drifting with engines off does, in my opinion, make it RAM. Had the boat been displaying RAM lights, it would have been visible from any angle, and the fact that it was not able to move quickly obvious.

Rule 3 states: The term "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to: and then gives some examples. The fact it says "not limited to", means there are other possibilities open to interpretation and not listed. Now if you have a definitive list of what constitutes RAM, please feel free to post it for all of our education.

The problem I have with displaying normal steaming lights when not making way and drifting with the tide is that the boat could actually be moving over the ground in the opposite direction to which the NAV light aspect might indicate, creating the potential for confusion.

Rule 3 (g) defines RAM and gives examples.
There is no definitive list of reasons to go RAM. That's because, although examples are given in the definitions, and the spirit of the Rules is made crystal clear, the number of potential reasons is theoretically infinite. That does not mean, 'open to your interpretation', however.
However, in this case, the question is not 'debatable', because fishing rods don't restrict a vessel's ability to manoevre.

Rule 23 (b) (ii) states the lights the James 2 was obliged to display, which was an all-round white light and, if practicable, sidelights.

 

[madabouttheboat]

Rule 3 (g) defines RAM and gives examples.
There is no definitive list of reasons to go RAM. That's because, although examples are given in the definitions, and the spirit of the Rules is made crystal clear, the number of potential reasons is theoretically infinite. That does not mean, 'open to your interpretation', however.
However, in this case, the question is not 'debatable', because fishing rods don't restrict a vessel's ability to manoevre.

Rule 23 (b) (ii) states the lights the James 2 was obliged to display, which was an all-round white light and, if practicable, sidelights.

You are misquoting me, hopefully not deliberately. I never said they were RAM due to having fishing rods over the side. I believe they could claim to be RAM due to not having an engine running. I also did not claim that RAM was open to MY interpretation, rather simply open to interpretation. Without a definitive list, that can be the only conclusion. If a boat cannot move quickly, or without restriction, it is, by definition, restricted.

As for displaying side lights, I have explained why I don't believe that to be a good idea when drifting.

Not sure what you mean by 23 b (ii). Dd you mean d (ii)?

If so, I agree that they are the correct lights when underway, unless something else is in play. ie RAM which has its own set of lights.

Power-driven vessels underway

(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit;

(i) a masthead light forward;
(ii) a second masthead light abaft and higher than the forward one; except that a vessel of less than 50m in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such light but may do so;
(iii) sidelights;
(iv) a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel operating in the non-displacement mode shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c) A WIG craft only when taking off, landing and in flight near the surface shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit a high-intensity all-round flashing red light.

(d)

(i) A power-driven vessel of less that 12 metres in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights;

(ii) a power-driven vessel of less than 7 metres in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights;
(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power-driven vessel of less than 12 metres in length may be displaced from the fore and aft centreline of the vessel if centreline fitting is not practicable, provided that the sidelights are combined in one lantern which shall be carried on the fore and aft centreline of the vessel or located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the masthead light or the all-round white light.

 

[Gary Fox]

You are misquoting me, hopefully not deliberately. I never said they were RAM due to having fishing rods over the side. I believe they could claim to be RAM due to not having an engine running. I also did not claim that RAM was open to MY interpretation, rather simply open to interpretation. Without a definitive list, that can be the only conclusion. If a boat cannot move quickly, or without restriction, it is, by definition, restricted.

As for displaying side lights, I have explained why I don't believe that to be a good idea when drifting.

Not sure what you mean by 23 b (ii). Dd you mean d (ii)?

If so, I agree that they are the correct lights when underway, unless something else is in play. ie RAM which has its own set of lights.

Power-driven vessels underway

(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit;

(b) An air-cushion vessel operating in the non-displacement mode shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c) A WIG craft only when taking off, landing and in flight near the surface shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit a high-intensity all-round flashing red light.

(d)

(ii) a power-driven vessel of less than 7 metres in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights;
(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power-driven vessel of less than 12 metres in length may be displaced from the fore and aft centreline of the vessel if centreline fitting is not practicable, provided that the sidelights are combined in one lantern which shall be carried on the fore and aft centreline of the vessel or located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the masthead light or the all-round white light.

It's 23 (c) (ii) I referred to, our copies of the Rules are different, I am using Cockroft and Lameijer 1982. Yes it's (d) (ii) in yours.

RAM for not using engine? Nope .

 

[LittleSister]

Perhaps forums are not for you. They seem to bring out a condescending superiority complex in you.

No they don't (and I'm sorry if it comes over that way). But threads like this bring out frustration in me, and amazement how many people have such a poor grasp of the ColRegs, and that some of those nevertheless even feel qualified to to spout off about the supposed shortcomings of experts in the field. (I could now add the willingness to play the man, and not the ball.)

 

[MystyBlue2]

Oh well I'm awfully sorry my level of education doesn't meet your standard's! I made a mistake which may i add is a hot topic as its also being discussed in other threads too.

A lot of people are discussing it as it seems to be a common one to get muddled up on.

Is there any need to muscle in with your highly ranking, Educated, Condescending head on and put down folk that may have gotten it wrong and mixed up?

If you look back a few pages i mentioned what tends to happen with education. NOT all but SOME people tend to climb the rankings and leave their manners at home as it all goes to their heads......

Definitely no need to be arrogant like you've been, others corrected me without being completely rude and its not the first time someone has gotten something wrong and it certainly wont be the last.

Can i ask why you feel the need to act that way toward people?

Is it to prove Education?

Prove how much you know?

Or to just simply put folk down and make yourself feel good and clever looking at your Qualification sitting behind a computer?

You may have higher knowledge, Skills and qualifications in this field but one skill you need to brush upon is your people skills.

I'm on the way to becoming higher educated and qualified but for folk like me it all takes time, i dont just leave school with 5 A* and a YM and daddy buying me my first 34ft yacht for my 16th birthday.

You need to remember, You where once a novice and had to learn things. If the folk that tought you where just as arrogant as your being then you would know NOTHING!

 

[madabouttheboat]

RAM for not using engine? Nope .

I don't know about you, but in my mobo if my engine is not running my ability to manoeuvre is most definitely restricted. In fact it is pretty much impossible.

 

[LittleSister]

I don't know about you, but in my mobo if my engine is not running my ability to manoeuvre is most definitely restricted. In fact it is pretty much impossible.

. . . until you turn the key!

'RULE 3 (g) The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.'

 

[Aardee]

I don't know about you, but in my mobo if my engine is not running my ability to manoeuvre is most definitely restricted. In fact it is pretty much impossible.

Assuming your boat is diesel or petrol powered and the engine is capable of starting, you're not RAM. If that were the case simply being away from the helm would also make you RAM - Both take a few seconds to remedy.

 

[Aardee]

Oh well I'm awfully sorry my level of education doesn't meet your standard's! I made a mistake which may i add is a hot topic as its also being discussed in other threads too.

A lot of people are discussing it as it seems to be a common one to get muddled up on.

Is there any need to muscle in with your highly ranking, Educated, Condescending head on and put down folk that may have gotten it wrong and mixed up?

If you look back a few pages i mentioned what tends to happen with education. NOT all but SOME people tend to climb the rankings and leave their manners at home as it all goes to their heads......

Definitely no need to be arrogant like you've been, others corrected me without being completely rude and its not the first time someone has gotten something wrong and it certainly wont be the last.

Can i ask why you feel the need to act that way toward people?

Is it to prove Education?

Prove how much you know?

Or to just simply put folk down and make yourself feel good and clever looking at your Qualification sitting behind a computer?

You may have higher knowledge, Skills and qualifications in this field but one skill you need to brush upon is your people skills.

I'm on the way to becoming higher educated and qualified but for folk like me it all takes time, i dont just leave school with 5 A* and a YM and daddy buying me my first 34ft yacht for my 16th birthday.

You need to remember, You where once a novice and had to learn things. If the folk that tought you where just as arrogant as your being then you would know NOTHING!

But there's the thing, you come on here spouting off about how poorly commercial shipping behaves and how lousy the UK justice system is, with pedophiles and terrorists walking the street (with no evidence to back up your Daily Mail claims), but when challenged you reply with this rant.

Has it struck you that your posts also come across as pretty damned SHOUTY and aggressive? - Read them back and ask yourself if they sound like a reasonable response from someone who is willing to learn from what happened?

As my old Dad used to say "I never learned anything while I was talking"

 

[rotrax]

The above post is pretty close to the mark.

Dan 208 comes across a bit like Blaster Bates consulting engineer.

" There you are, been on the job two weeks, its all over bar the shouting and then the 'Consulting Engineer' turns up.

The job is nine parts done and he is going to tell you how you SHOULD have carried it out..............."

I have been fishing in small boats for 50 years.

During a 'Round the Island' race we did have a deep keeled yacht snag the anchor line trying to dodge the tide just round the back of the Needles, but our hero appears to suffer similar close calls all the time.

Perhaps it is a positioning error on his part?

In my experience productive wrecks are often - but not always - in deep water some way out, often a few miles.

A bit chancy in a 5 metre vessel that cant cope with the wash of other vessels moving close by.

Keep yourself safe with Primary Safety.

Vessel suitable for the job, good lookout, display the day shapes or light, keep the radio on.

And, most important, keep a very good lookout..............................

 

[MystyBlue2]

Differance is i was putting emotion into the context of the situation. Not aimed at a particular person commenting.

I have never once been arrogant, Condescending, rude, or implied to anyone that i am 100% correct and they are definitely wrong and they know nothing unlike some!

There is a way to speak to people and have a debate. Ardee and Achoseman have been against what i have said for the past 19 pages and thats fine, they argue in a way that is comes across as a debate with different ways of looking at things and you can learn and debate about it.

Seen as 90% of folk on here have vessels over 25ft and wash/wake wont even matter as going out in a force 6 is "Play time" i thought i would give my thoughts on the situation and the fact i have had personal experience with larger vessels doing this to me. Luckily i got away and james 2 unfortunately did not.

As for small mobos being unsuitable for the sea just youtube....TA fishing and The fish locker. They have small mobo fishing boats and go off 8-9-10 NM offshore wreck fishing with low freeboards NO PROBLEMS.

Its other vessels and bad conditions that cause us the issues, not the lack of sea capabilitys. I think the manufacturer knows their boats and what they have been tested in and categorises them accordingly, More than some "know it all" That thinks anything under 25ft should be in a lake only!

Seems like most on this site "Shooo" if you are not a yachtee as mobos aren't suitable for the sea and are for peasants.

And we wonder why there is conflict between yachtees and mobos? Maybe attitude and Condescending nature of things???

Some, Muscle in with a certain attitudes and Ego's and there's just no need. Think il just leave the thread. Save any animosity.

 

[rotrax]

Not at all. My last boat fishing on the ocean was in a 4.8 metre GRP boat - a Kiwi built job with a sodding great motor. Skipper was a fellow petrolhead who was from Austria called Horst.

He was VERY careful about crossing the bar.

Three were drowned over it two weeks before we arrived...........................

Like I said, primary safety, right vessel, right conditions, good lookout, display shapes/lights and monitor the radio on 16.

You know it makes sense..........................

 

[Gary Fox]

....mobos aren't suitable for the sea and are for peasants.

 

[Sandy]

And we wonder why there is conflict between yachtees and mobos? Maybe attitude and Condescending nature of things???

I have no conflict between yachtees and mobos, or people in canoes or SUPs. What scares me to death are kite surfers.

One of several big mobos I pass on my way out to sea.

 

[penfold]

Well i have a 14ft seahog rated at CAT C.

Upto force 6,
Upto 7ft sea,
And use for coastal waters upto (12NM offshore).

I definitely think its more than capable of inshore (3NM-ish fishing), It's the arrogance of others that make it dangerous moreover that capabilities of the smaller boats.

Kayaks and SIB'S are extremely seaworthy, A large vessel ploughing through could easily tip it with wash/wake or kill the occupant by cutting him in half by the skipper being on his fone for instance. It all comes down to common sense and courtesy at sea for everyone. The sea is not just for highly qualified, Larger vessels.

A 26m vessel at 7.5kts is doing slightly over half its hull speed, the wake would be quite mild even at close quarters.

 

[Adios]

This seems relevant

 

[MystyBlue2]

It looks to me the smaller boat is anchored and cant move!

Yeah the small boat probably shouldn't be anchored in a lane to start with BUT he is anchored and is restricted to manoeuvre, As is the large ship in a narrow channel.

What is annoying and equally confusing to me is (Going back to the road here) If there is a delivery van or a bus has stopped in the middle of the road, (small fishing boat at anchor) And I'm behind him and need to stop, Then i can risk overtaking and having a head on collision with oncoming traffic (What the large ship is doing) or just wait until the obstruction has moved I.E (He's pulled up anchor) and we all continue with no accidents.

Lets just ignore the 30 small boats infront of me...Il just blast my horn and push through anyways.

 

[Adios]

It looks to me the smaller boat is anchored and cant move!

Lets just ignore the 30 small boats infront of me...Il just blast my horn and push through anyways.

I don't know though. Which one was more restricted in its ability to manoeuvre?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

It looks to me the smaller boat is anchored and cant move!

Yeah the small boat probably shouldn't be anchored in a lane to start with BUT he is anchored and is restricted to manoeuvre, As is the large ship in a narrow channel.

What is annoying and equally confusing to me is (Going back to the road here) If there is a delivery van or a bus stopped in the middle of the road, (small fishing boat at anchor) And I'm behind him and need to stop, Then i can risk overtaking and having a head on collision with oncoming traffic (What the large ship is doing) or just wait until the obstruction has moved (He's pulled up anchor) and we all continue with no accidents.

Lets just ignore the 30 small boats infront of me...Il just blast my horn and push through anyways.

You haven't learned much from this thread have you?

 

[Adios]

What is annoying and equally confusing to me is (Going back to the road here) If there is a delivery van or a bus has stopped in the middle of the road, (small fishing boat at anchor) And I'm behind him and need to stop, Then i can risk overtaking and having a head on collision with oncoming traffic (What the large ship is doing) or just wait until the obstruction has moved I.E (He's pulled up anchor) and we all continue with no accidents.

Ah I see where the conflict of your opinion and maritime law lies. These ships can't stop as easily as something on the road. Nothing like it.

Stopping a Ship: Why Ships Cannot Have Brakes?