Sad case of deaths at sea.....not keeping watch

[Aardee]

Well i have a 14ft seahog rated at CAT C.

Upto force 6,
Upto 7ft sea,
And use for coastal waters upto (12NM offshore).

I definitely think its more than capable of inshore (3NM-ish fishing), It's the arrogance of others that make it dangerous moreover that capabilities of the smaller boats.

Kayaks and SIB'S are extremely seaworthy, A large vessel ploughing through could easily tip it with wash/wake or kill the occupant by cutting him in half by the skipper being on his fone for instance. It all comes down to common sense and courtesy at sea for everyone. The sea is not just for highly qualified, Larger vessels.

All I can say is you experience of the sea and the behaviour of larger vessels in particular are very different to mine...

 

[dom]

MAIB: 'James 2 did not have all the navigation lights required to operate at sea at night and, as a result, it is likely that the motor cruiser was not visible from Vertrouwen’s wheelhouse. '

Quite a critical disagreement, in my mind.

Which is why the court spent a lot of time examining this point. And found that the boat was visible, a point accepted by expert witness called on behalf of the defence.

Not to mention the other matters referred to in JB's post #330 above.

And do remember, if the defence shares your opinion, they are perfectly free to appeal. Let's see what they do.

 

[Achosenman]

MAIB: 'James 2 did not have all the navigation lights required to operate at sea at night and, as a result, it is likely that the motor cruiser was not visible from Vertrouwen’s wheelhouse. '

Quite a critical disagreement, in my mind.

I agree, however the judge seems to have nailed the attitude of a great many commercial fishing skippers.

I wonder if she's a sailor?

 

[Achosenman]

Which is why the court spent a lot of time examining this point. And found that the boat was visible, a point accepted by expert witness called on behalf of the defence.

Not to mention the other matters referred to in JB's post #330 above.

And do remember, if the defence shares your opinion, they are perfectly free to appeal. Let's see what they do.

Can you give a link to that point. By my estimation, the James 2 would likely drift quartering stern to the oncoming fishing vessel. The tide and wind saw to that. The survivor stated they saw the fishing vessel early. How, they were sat in the cockpit, not on the foredeck? Since the James 2 was lacking any stern navigation light or any all-round white light, it was effectively unlit for collision avoidance purposes.

 

[Uricanejack]

But that scenario happens all to often, larger vessels charging through close to shore not giving a second thought how their wash/wake will negativity effect other water users.

Its petrifying being on a small boat with HUGE vessels being the "Boy racers" and causing chaos and potential swamping and sinking of anything less than 18ft say,

There are so many small water users out there....kayakers, small day fishing boats, Jetskis, Swimmers, Paddleboarders etc.

Like said match speed to current conditions, Visibility and other traffic.

Not hard to do but bigger boats skippers tend to be either arrogant, ignorant or both....Cant decide which and use their skipper tickets to gain the hierarchy over all other vessels.

Petrifying? Are you sure this is the right pastime for you, perhaps you would find something else less tressfull.

You posted a picture of a High speed ferry which you felt bullied you. I am not going to suggest this didn’t happen. Or doesn’t happen.
I have observed this kind of behaviour else where.
if you felt it was out of order, did you report it to, Dover CG, Harbour master or how about the ferry company?
I’m sure they would look into it.
So something passes close, you moved, you get on with life.
A lot of posters have issue with this case, possibly because, you are responsible for your own boats saftey and the little fishing boat left a lot to be desired.

 

[MystyBlue2]

Petrifying? Are you sure this is the right pastime for you, perhaps you would find something else less tressfull.

You posted a picture of a High speed ferry which you felt bullied you. I am not going to suggest this didn’t happen. Or doesn’t happen.
I have observed this kind of behaviour else where.
if you felt it was out of order, did you report it to, Dover CG, Harbour master or how about the ferry company?
I’m sure they would look into it.
So something passes close, you moved, you get on with life.
A lot of posters have issue with this case, possibly because, you are responsible for your own boats saftey and the little fishing boat left a lot to be desired.

It happened, I'm over it. The point I'm trying to make is that, This kind of behaviour causes accidents and loss of life!

 

[LittleSister]

I was losing the will to live about 2/3 of the way through this thread.

We have numerous people pronouncing on the supposed shortcomings of the MAIB, the courts, juries, judges, the watch keeper, the anglers, etc. etc., but who have never themselves bothered to learn the basics of the ColRegs, and/or seem unable to apply basic reading skills or logic .

An angling boat is not a fishing vessel under the ColRegs.
An angling boat should not display a fishing vessel's lights or day shapes.
A boat with its engine switched off is not 'Not Under Command', and should not display NUC day shapes or lights.

A small selection of the posts that convince me it's dangerous out there on the sea!

Ok but any vessel not under command means ENGINE NOT RUNNING and this rule applies to all, trawler vessels, jet ski's, Tenders etc.

Wrong.

If the smaller boat was stationery and engine was not running it means he was "immobile" and could not get out of the way,

Wrong.

We know that James 2 was not displaying the correct lights, but that got me thinking about what the correct lights were. The James 2 was drifting with engine off while fishing with rods. The best I can come up with would be red, white, red. Restricted in ability to manoeuvre with a status of underway, but not making way.

Wrong.

How is a 12month sentence for the loss of 3 lives harsh by any stretch of the imagination?

He was not convicted of the loss of 3 lives. He was convicted of failing to keep a good lookout.

 

[MystyBlue2]

I was losing the will to live about 2/3 of the way through this thread.

We have numerous people pronouncing on the supposed shortcomings of the MAIB, the courts, juries, judges, the watch keeper, the anglers, etc. etc., but who have never themselves bothered to learn the basics of the ColRegs, and/or seem unable to apply basic reading skills or logic .

An angling boat is not a fishing vessel under the ColRegs.
An angling boat should not display a fishing vessel's lights or day shapes.
A boat with its engine switched off is not 'Not Under Command', and should not display NUC day shapes or lights.

A small selection of the posts that convince me it's dangerous out there on the sea!



Wrong.



Wrong.



Wrong.



He was not convicted of the loss of 3 lives. He was convicted of failing to keep a good lookout.

Yeah and if you bothered to look back, I did apologise and said sorry for my information! So easy to jump to the end of the thread and give your 2 $ without reading previous comments

 

[LittleSister]

Yeah and if you bothered to look back, I did apologise and said sorry for my information! So easy to jump to the end of the thread and give your 2 $ without reading previous comments

So easy to jump in and give your $2 worth without knowing what the hell you're talking about.

After I'd read about 80 previous posts, a significant proportion which contained fundamental errors, I doubted the remainder would give me much enlightenment.

Got yourself a copy of the ColRegs yet?

 

[MystyBlue2]

So easy to jump in and give your $2 worth without knowing what the hell you're talking about.

After I'd read about 80 previous posts, a significant proportion which contained fundamental errors, I doubted the remainder would give me much enlightenment.

Got yourself a copy of the ColRegs yet?

there's always that one person ?

 

[LittleSister]

Got yourself a copy of the ColRegs yet?

there's always that one person ?

I guess that's a no, then.

 

[MystyBlue2]

I guess that's a no, then.

Yes I've got them, lets guess mate, Uve never been wrong no?

You where born knowing everything?

Like i said, I apologised, I made a mistake get over it!

Dont see the point of silently following a thread, Not posting or having a debate or input, To then jump in at the end and pick folk apart with your "I know everything attitude" And call up 80% of folk being incorrect. Nowt but a troll

 

[scottie]

Yes I've got them, lets guess mate, Uve never been wrong no?

You where born knowing everything?

Like i said, I apologised, I made a mistake get over it!

Dont see the point of silently following a thread, Not posting or having a debate or input, To then jump in at the end and pick folk apart with your "I know everything attitude" And call up 80% of folk being incorrect. Nowt but a troll

Does this mean he should be displaying a basket

 

[MystyBlue2]

Does this mean he should be displaying a basket

 

[dom]

This forum is deepened and enriched by a diverse set of posters and this thread is about the loss of a small o/b powered angling vessel.

Dan brings us exactly that perspective.

Moreover, many of his comments chime with and are supported by those made by Judge Christine Laing QC, no matter what we may think.

Perhaps we should get off the man and back onto the ball?

 

[MystyBlue2]

This forum is deepened and enriched by a diverse set of posters and this thread is about the loss of a small o/b powered angling vessel.

Dan brings us exactly that perspective.

Moreover, many of his comments chime with and are supported by those made by Judge Christine Laing QC, no matter what we may think.

Perhaps we should get off the man and back onto the ball?

Thank you

 

[scottie]

You seem to have a humour lack

 

[dom]

You seem to have a humour lack

Point taken and post edited

 

[madabouttheboat]

I was losing the will to live about 2/3 of the way through this thread.

We have numerous people pronouncing on the supposed shortcomings of the MAIB, the courts, juries, judges, the watch keeper, the anglers, etc. etc., but who have never themselves bothered to learn the basics of the ColRegs, and/or seem unable to apply basic reading skills or logic .

An angling boat is not a fishing vessel under the ColRegs.
An angling boat should not display a fishing vessel's lights or day shapes.
A boat with its engine switched off is not 'Not Under Command', and should not display NUC day shapes or lights.

A small selection of the posts that convince me it's dangerous out there on the sea!



Wrong.



Wrong.



Wrong.



He was not convicted of the loss of 3 lives. He was convicted of failing to keep a good lookout.

As you have quoted me in your 'dangerous out there', 'not bothered to learn the basics of the colregs' and 'unable to apply basic reading skills or logic' post I feel I must respond.

I never suggested the boat was NUC. I suggested it was RAM, which is quite different and would display different lights. Now whether it is RAM or not is debatable, but drifting with engines off does, in my opinion, make it RAM. Had the boat been displaying RAM lights, it would have been visible from any angle, and the fact that it was not able to move quickly obvious.

Rule 3 states: The term "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to: and then gives some examples. The fact it says "not limited to", means there are other possibilities open to interpretation and not listed. Now if you have a definitive list of what constitutes RAM, please feel free to post it for all of our education.

The problem I have with displaying normal steaming lights when not making way and drifting with the tide is that the boat could actually be moving over the ground in the opposite direction to which the NAV light aspect might indicate, creating the potential for confusion.

 

[madabouttheboat]

After I'd read about 80 previous posts, a significant proportion which contained fundamental errors, I doubted the remainder would give me much enlightenment.

Got yourself a copy of the ColRegs yet?

Perhaps forums are not for you. They seem to bring out a condescending superiority complex in you.