Sabre 27 fin keel or bilge keel?

[Giobaggio]

Hello all,

Thanks so much in advance for your advice.

My grandad, my brother and I are finally looking to buy our first ‘big boat’. I’ve been messing around on boats for years, and we’ve recently built a small wooden skiff together. This is our next project, and something I’ve been dreaming about for years.

I’ve also been dreaming about Sabre 27s for years having read Ken Endean’s UK circumnavigation adventure in London Apprentice as a young lad. So, as an imminent buyer, I have arrived at the age old question of Bilge Keel Vs Fin Keel I wondered of you could help with.

I’ve sided with bilge keel until very recently as it seems to make a lot of sense for a first time boat:

• Access to pretty inland waterways like the Carrick Roads (a favourite cruising ground of ours)
• Easier when I think of some dream sailing locations such as Brittany and the Scilly Isles (again, favourites of ours), and through the French Canals to the Med.
• A little more forgiving with the tides
• Cheaper moorings when out and about

However, I’m also quite concerned about sailing performance. Having grown up on dinghies, I like a proper sail. While I’m not a racer as such, I like a boat that holds its own in terms of passage planning speeds, is able to point respectably upwind, and has a sea kindly motion. So given this, I have some questions I wondered if you might be able to help with:

1. How much of a drop off is there in sailing performance between the fin keel and the bilge keel Sabre?
2. Has anyone fitted beaching legs to a fin keel Sabre? Would these largely allow me to get the best of both worlds?
3. Would the draught of the fin keel of a Sabre present a problem for the Carrick Roads, Scilly Isles, Brittany, French Canals?

Alternatively, we are looking at:

• Westerly Griffon
• Hunter Horizon 27
• Trapper 501 (bilge)
• Sadler 26 (bilge)
• Moody 27
• Jaguar 27

I can’t quite get as excited about the above as a Sabre (childhood nostalgia I think), but I do really like them. Does anyone have any advice on the bilge keel sailing performance of them? (Particularly in comparison to a Sabre).

Thank you so much in advance!

 

[Moderator]

Thread relocated from "Wanted".

 

[johnalison]

The only one I have sailed is the Trapper 501 bilge, which was a pig. My impression is that few of the bilge-keelers will give much sailing satisfaction, with the exception of the much more modern Horizon, and the probably much more expensive Sadler 290. I have had friends with Sabres, bilge and fin, and they seem decent boats. You are right about the advantages of twin keels, but they are not to my taste.

 

[[70521]]

Hello and welcome

I had a Mirage 28 bilge keeler for a few years with the idea that the family would sail to a beach dry out have a day on the beach and go home. Never worked out and I now have a Gib'Sea 96 fin keel.

The Mirage was a cracking boat and well worth a look at.

 

[Refueler]

I am a dedicated Bilge Keeler. I accept that many BK boats will not point as well and have a more roller type of movement.

BUT the advantage in costs far outweighs it in my view. The range of moorings you can have ... mud, drying etc. that fin keelers have to stay clear of. Many harbours have cheaper mooring dues for drying moorings ... more clubs to choose from etc.
It does have one drawback though if you get neaped !! A Fin keeler can be heeled to maybe get away ... but a BK cannot as in fact heeling the boat usually increases the draft a few cms.

But a while back one of the mags did a direct one to one comparison of versions of same boat ... I think it was a Sadler 26 ... Fin vs BK and the difference in fact was literally down to who helmed the boats !

There are some awful BK boats as some Fins as well ... but some BK jobs are really so much a compromise to cruise ... and take ground.

 

[NPMR]

As an ex Sabre owner, I know there is a performance advantage with the fin keel version (which is what I had) but that can be overcome if you have a bilge keeler, by having good sails, helming well, and keeping the bottom clean.

Our fin keeler had legs which we dumped as just so much dead weight to lug about and never missed them.

Based in Falmouth, we sailed to all the areas you are thinking of and never once missed not being able to sneak closer to shore. It only had a 4'6" draught anyway.

The handiness, roominess and all round solidity made the Sabre a fabulous little boat, much overlooked by people who seem to prefer an inferior sailing Centaur etc.

And now, so cheap! Enjoy.

 

[matt1]

As an ex Sabre owner, I know there is a performance advantage with the fin keel version (which is what I had) but that can be overcome if you have a bilge keeler, by having good sails, helming well, and keeping the bottom clean.

Our fin keeler had legs which we dumped as just so much dead weight to lug about and never missed them.

Based in Falmouth, we sailed to all the areas you are thinking of and never once missed not being able to sneak closer to shore. It only had a 4'6" draught anyway.

The handiness, roominess and all round solidity made the Sabre a fabulous little boat, much overlooked by people who seem to prefer an inferior sailing Centaur etc.

And now, so cheap! Enjoy.

Good advice. I’ve lots of experience in a bilge keel tomahawk and various twin keel hunters. Well sailed and with quality sails you won’t notice much difference. My last Hunter with laminate sails and feathering prop was a proper quick boat! In your circumstances I’d go for the two keel option any day. I certainly miss having two keels around the Solent.

 

[Bru]

Also a former Sabre 27 owner and ours was a twin keel version which had previously sailed regularly in company with a fin keel Sabre 27

Certainly the fin keel version will point up better and head reach (sail faster) than the twin but the difference is not massive

The twin keeler is still a very good sailing boat with decent performance. It has two proper foil keels and should not be confused with the dreaded slabby bilge keels of old which were dreadful

If our intention had been to continue sailing primarily in the Thames Estuary we would have stayed with twin keels when we moved up to a bigger boat. (We went fin because we intend the current W33 to be the boat we retire on and head out for several years further afield aboard)

You won't, in my opinion and experience, find a twin keel Sabre 27 disappointing. However, if you don't need the shoal draught and drying out capabilities a fin will go somewhat better

HTH

 

[Rappey]

How about buying your twin keel and doing the things you like ?
After time you will be either content with what you have and what you are doing or you may desire a bigger boat with better sailing qualities to venture further afield in more comfort ?
I started with a triple keel, moved to a swing keel and now sail a long keel as absolutely love the directional stability and ride comfort.
Would never go back to a bilge keel and don't miss not being able to take to the ground .

 

[billgray]

Our first boat was a Sabre 27 fin. We sailed it round Scotland (East and West) for 15 years with our (then) young family. Fab boat even in bad weather. Dried out in most of the East coast harbors and stayed on board through out. I still miss her, a great boat.
Bill

 

[doug748]

.........I’ve sided with bilge keel until very recently as it seems to make a lot of sense for a first time boat:

• Access to pretty inland waterways like the Carrick Roads (a favourite cruising ground of ours)
• Easier when I think of some dream sailing locations such as Brittany and the Scilly Isles (again, favourites of ours), and through the French Canals to the Med.
• A little more forgiving with the tides
• Cheaper moorings when out and about
• ........................

All very good reasons.

I would stick with your original instinct. You are not going to mistake the sailing performance of either version for a spirited dinghy and, with a fin, you may miss the stuff you like doing best.

There are indeed some superb places in Brittany that are very little known because fin keelers don't get to them. I often think there is room for a Youtube channel that focused on these places. A sort of Gallic Dylan Winter is required.

.

 

[gertha]

If you enjoy sailing , you will be frustrated by a bilge keel; been there done that.

The nature of tides, the timing is often wrong, to dry out and wait for tide to come back.
To make reasonable progress you will drift up a river on the flood, as the tide turns you slow to close to zero, if tacking a bilge on a river against a tide you will go backwards, again got the T shirt.
So you arrive somewhere, high tide, stop, wait for the tide to go out and in , you then have the problem of tide to take you out before it is too low to go over a bar.

if you enjoy motering none of the above is a problem; but if you enjoy motoring you can save a fortune on all the twigs and string that come on a sail boat.

My advice buy a fin keel.

There is nothing wrong with any of the selection of boats, one will turn up and be an obvious bargain, I would not get too hung up on any make, in reality maintenance and quality of equipment on board is more important.

which ever way you go , enjoy and keep safe

simon

 

[Keith 66]

Ten year ago my wife & i looked at a Bilge keeled Sabre & missed it. A while later we sold our old boat & delivered it. Walking round the boatyard as you do we came across a nice looking fin keeled boat in poor condition & realised it was a Sabre, the first fin keeled one we had seen.
It turned out to be for sale & a low offer later she was ours. A major refit later we have a great boat.
We keep her at Benfleet on the east coast & her draft has not been a problem but you do have to be careful & a good fish finder is essential!
As to performance there are 6 Sabres in our club & several more locally.
There is considerable variation between the fleet in weight & earlier versions had shorter masts so less sail area. Performance in light airs is similar but the fin goes to windward better, once it gets windy the windward advantage increases further.
I have sailed both versions & the main difference to me was that the fin version seemed to have far more feel on the helm than its bilge keeled sister.
As to choice between them? Im not sure the performance advantage is that much of a deal breaker but the following is applicable!
Bilge keelers seem to be more desirable particularly on the east coast & this will often mean higher prices.
What you should be looking at is overall condition, how old is the engine all that sort of thing.
Dont worry about what keel configuration it is. But i wouldnt change ours now!
Ps im also Sabre owners assoc Technical officer & its an excellent class association!

 

[Laysula]

We Have had two bilge keelers and two fin keel boats. Snapdragon 21, Cobra 850, Hanse 301,Bavaria 350. At the time each suited us for what we wanted
The Snapdragon was our starter boat nice and cheap and suitable for two adults and two toddlers. We outgrew that and bought the Cobra. In comparison it was huge with an inboard diesel seperate cabins and a seperate head. This served us for many years, not particularly fast but Ideal for family weekends often drying out around North Wales and the Isle of Man. As the kids went on to do their own thing we bought the Hanse. A big change again, smaller volume boat but considerably faster. Tidal heights suddenly became a lot more important as was the need to stay afloat constantly.. Then the final boat a 350 Bavaria. Again a fast boat with the need for vigilance with the water depths, A lot more room and comfort and very suitable for long distance cruising.
As we get older and the longing for faraway lands goes we will probably go back to a small twin keeler to explore the local creeks etc.

 

[V1701]

I think the Sabre is a good choice but as someone else said focusing on a particular make/model restricts your choice and means you might lose out on something that would really suit you or a real bargain so don't discount other boats...

 

[Rappey]

What's the experience with swing/lift keels?
Had a dauntless a long time ago, a gunter rigged with a swing keel.
The keel made the greatest echo sounder ever when ditch crawling but the leeway under sail was appalling and was a plodder.

 

[Giobaggio]

Hi all,

Thanks so much for the advice so far, it’s a real help!

A swing/lifting keel is an interesting suggestion and one that has recently come up in my search. Ostensibly they are the happy middle ground where you get uncompromised performance + shallow draught and sometimes the ability to dry out.

Does anyone have any experience with them? I personally don’t, so any advice would again be appreciated! What are the pros/cons?

Thanks again,

 

[stav]

Last of the macwester 26 perhaps should be on your list? My father had one, I quite liked it but have always been a fin keel person. My approach would be a fin with a good set of legs, modern alloy jobs? Not that I have tried to this. Just a suggestion for a route to look at? Agree with the other advice of look for the best boat not one particular model.

 

[langstonelayabout]

In short, buy the boat you really want, otherwise the boat you buy will be nearly the boat that you want, but not quite. You'll always hate it and it will cost the same money to run.

Fin or bilge? Bilge keel boats sail nearly as well as fin keel boats. Are you in this for sailing purity or to enjoy your sailing with your family and when the upwind bit gets more challenging just switch on the engine.

Oh, and a 27' bilge keel boat on one of my club's moorings near the Solent will cost just over £200 a year. A nearby yard charges £2500 for a deep water mooring for the same length of boat. Local marinas more than that.

Your choice.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I have moved from long single keel to a bilge keel bot, why?
Here on the West coast of Wales a lot of the small harbours dry out, not always problem if you have a set of yacht legs which my last boat did, but you still have to choose harbours carefully to avoid one leg ending up in a gulley.
There is also the half hour it takes to put then on, while all the bilge keel crews have decanted to the bar, and then the 40 often muddy minutes to take them off and stowing them away before departure.
True the sailing is great with a fin/ long keel (no 'slamming' they just cut through the water) and usually point slightly higher, but choose the right bilge keeler and the difference isn't so great, and they open up harbours and creeks that are dubious for a fin.
So you pays your money and takes your choice, I have decided that in our drying harbour, with lots of drying harbours in our region and that I don't intend to do any more long distance cruises (Ireland, Scilly Isles and maybe Channel Islands at most) a good bilge keeler will suit me fine, it will even stand up well against the opposition in handicapped club races
Can't really help too much on the Sabre, there is a bilge keel version on a mooring a few boats down from me, it looks a tidy boat, but I can 'knock the spots off it" with my Sadler 25 when we're racing.