RYA Together on water

[ylop]

No I didn't go because without inherited wealth I am sadly forced to work for a living and it was held on a weekday.

I'd 100% endorse that as an issue, although its better than it used to be now that its broadcast on line. Of course, if you were one of the many people who have to work weekends or evenings you might disagree that a Friday daytime was bad. I haven't checked but I'd bet the Board meetings are on weekdays too, and I used to be a trustee for a household name charity that complained that its trustees were too old and didn't cover the demographic it worked with, I was like a stuck record player saying "stop holding meetings on Monday mornings them", then they would set the next meeting at a time that best suited the existing trustees. But have you shared your gripe with the RYA?

I expect that the timing is to fit with HRH's schedule - but that may be my bias.

And oddly, I might not have thought to ask "just on the off-chance, If you're going to spend a sack of money on rebranding may we first see the study which demonstrates expected return on investment?".

You don't need to explicitly ask that question - but if like many members you ignore everything the organisation does it's a bit rich to suddenly complain when they do one thing you don't like.

You can always ask it this year as part of the finance report.

And no I have no way of knowing ahead of time what's in the heads of a bunch of people I don't know on the ballot paper each year and I never meet them because I'm not invited to the parties at Ensign house.

I agree this is an issue for many organisations electing officials. You could always stand yourself if you don't think anyone else represents your sort of pragmatic thinking.

This whole line of discussion is absurd: I simply added to this discussion by saying that while I like the new logo I wonder what the return on investment will be and whether that had been assessed. You're entitled to believe that paying members shouldn't question in discussions the decisions of "leaders" that they should have got to know prior to their being elected.

No, I'm not saying that at all - I'm saying there's structures and communication channels where you can probably actually find the answer to your question if you really care but that asking it on the YBW forums seems like it's probably a passive-aggressive dig. By the way, if anyone tells you they have a confident prediction on the ROI of a rebrand they are talking bollocks, there's no organisation which knows how successful such a thing will be, even after the fact it's almost impossible to measure. But you would expect the leadership to make reasoned judgements even when there is no empirical evidence available to do it with - that's why we are paying some big salaries to people.

 

[ylop]

Does the RYA have a section devoted to PWC s ? a small fleet perhaps that could be hired out to any interested parties to encourage intelligent use and participation in the sport.
Ask merely out of interest of course .

I don't think it has a "dedicated section" but PWCs fall under the motorboating "section". They provide training. PWC clubs could be affiliated, training centres are etc. Their normal mode of operation is not to own and hire out equipment themselves - that feels like the sort of thing a business/RTC, club, manufacturer, or British Marine would perhaps take the lead on.

Cos of a "free" renewal of the ICC. ?
It takes longer to remove the packaging and gather up the wine offers, than to find nothing of any relevance in the contents to a large section of the boating community , before popping the entire thing into the recycling.

I wonder if the RYA have a good handle on how many of its members only exist for this sort of reason (or because instructors require to be members etc). Probably they are the least vocal in the consultation exercises. Instead, internally you hear the voices of the club committees etc - because these are the sort of people who actively engage with the RYA.

 

[Dellquay13]

Cos of a "free" renewal of the ICC. ?
It takes longer to remove the packaging and gather up the wine offers, than to find nothing of any relevance in the contents to a large section of the boating community , before popping the entire thing into the recycling.

I sincerely hope that my 23 years of subscriptions haven’t solely paid for a quarterly magazine that has very little to interest me as a weekend cruiser, and 4 free ICCs.
I hope lots of useful lobbying has been done on my behalf, keeping my boating free of overbearing regulations and taxes. I had a boat in Greece for 10 years, and local boat owners were amazed when they heard how much freedom from mandatory registration, licensing and boat taxation we have in the uk.

I am always struck how rural leisure spaces in general, not just marinas, have very little racial diversity, and if the RYA can help change this and other under-represented groups where they can, all power to them.
Starting with more high adrenaline pastimes that might interest young people like windsurfing, dinghy sailing or zapcats is most likely the right way to go, to encourage diversity afloat. It’s not going to attract me as a middle aged bloke, but I’m not in the minority of people in rural leisure.
Maybe the under-represented groups feel as unwelcome and uneasy around yacht harbours as I feel walking down many High streets at 1am on a Saturday morning. Maybe they just don’t have any interest in outdoor pursuits, like I don’t think about sports fashionwear and Grime artists.

The RYA have been rubbish at delivering my free display certificates though, I’ll have to chase them again sometime.

 

[ylop]

There is no issue. People do the things that interest them. There is nothing to stop anyone of any kind from taking part. Try going to the beach, you will see that going to the beach is not very diverse, it is not a problem people just make choices.

I don't think you understand inclusion. If you are a wheelchair user, not going to a beach may not be your choice. I have to say that the beaches I see are otherwise a fairly diverse mix of fat, thin, pale, tanned, burned, young, old, male, female, noisy, quiet etc. Depending on the beach it might be full of single parents who got there on the bus eeking out their benefits to entertain the kids during the school holidays, full of middle class kids with their own surf boards, or final salary pensioners walking their dogs. But beaches are public access, if the main way to access a beach involved joining a club, going on a training course etc and the people found on beaches were predominantly male, middle class, middle-aged you'd start to wonder if there was some bias involved that was stopping inclusion. If you found that people who use beaches were broader than that but the ones who join the beach users association were all from the same mould you might be even more concerned. The fact that nobody is ever turned away doesn't make you inclusive.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... The fact that nobody is ever turned away doesn't make you inclusive.

And for those late to the diversity agenda, which has been well underway for a couple of decades now (the RYA is late to the game), diversity now includes equity.

 

[Dellquay13]

And for those late to the diversity agenda, which has been well underway for a couple of decades now (the RYA is late to the game), diversity now includes equity.

That’s probably the main cause of exclusion of minorities in all spheres

 

[rogerthebodger]

That’s probably the main cause of exclusion of minorities in all spheres

Exclusion in sailing is enforced by the World Sailing regulation 19 which required any one who wishes to be involved in sailing run under the rules published by world sailing must be a member in good standing of the affiliate of world sailing. In the UK this is RYA.

Where I live the World Sailing affiliate requires all members of an affiliated club must be a paying member og the World Sailing affiliate.

So there is institutional Exclusion in World Sailing IMHO of cause

 

[Dellquay13]

Exclusion in sailing is enforced by the World Sailing regulation 19 which required any one who wishes to be involved in sailing run under the rules published by world sailing must be a member in good standing of the affiliate of world sailing. In the UK this is RYA.

Where I live the World Sailing affiliate requires all members of an affiliated club must be a paying member og the World Sailing affiliate.

So there is institutional Exclusion in World Sailing IMHO of cause

I’ve never sailed under anyones rules* whether affiliated or not.
I even try to defy the rules of Physics when I get bored of going backwards or sideways

*Ok, maybe a passing nod to ColRegs, but only if I think someone might be watching

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Exclusion in sailing is enforced by the World Sailing regulation 19 which required any one who wishes to be involved in sailing run under the rules published by world sailing must be a member in good standing of the affiliate of world sailing. In the UK this is RYA.

Where I live the World Sailing affiliate requires all members of an affiliated club must be a paying member og the World Sailing affiliate.

So there is institutional Exclusion in World Sailing IMHO of cause

That is not exclusion.

 

[ctva]

To my simple mind, there is too much of this ‘forced inclusion and diversity’ where boxes have to be ticked and the optics have to show the latest pc values.

As someone said, equality and equality of opportunity are two very different things. The first is what is being forced on us in sport (any one can compete as any gender as an example), the second is what we should have and means everyone is accepted and welcomed without bias to participate.

Of course, the biggest barrier to I&D is money. Should I personally feel excluded from the super yachty fraternity as I can’t afford one? No, I participate in what I can afford and that has changed throughout my life as I have had funds available. Or time.

On the time bit, I can well relate to @ylop above. I was asked to join a RYA committee (to help lower the average age as they struggled to get under 60’s) and said yes. Then I found out the meetings are midweek in the afternoon. I pointed out the same where as a non retired / working person, I could not attend and that may be their problem for lack of diversity on the age front. I will wait and see if they change the times…

The RAF were found out last week (hopefully in the past so not too current…) which is where we do not want to end up by not supporting as well, those that show a desire and want to participate.

Anyway, the new logo is pants.

 

[lustyd]

Buying even a cheap dinghy and keeping it at an inland club may be the most accessible route

It's interesting, but to me this sums up one issue - why do I have to be a member of any club to keep my boat or dinghy anywhere? There's some exclusion right there, if we want more people to participate then make it easier to do the sport, rather than taking over every bit of water in the country and forcing a club structure. Some of us just want to turn up and do watersports.

 

[ylop]

It's interesting, but to me this sums up one issue - why do I have to be a member of any club to keep my boat or dinghy anywhere? There's some exclusion right there, if we want more people to participate then make it easier to do the sport, rather than taking over every bit of water in the country and forcing a club structure. Some of us just want to turn up and do watersports.

You don't - nobody is forcing you to follow the club approach. Lots of people do exactly what you say and many of them are RYA members. BUT joining a club might have advantages for some, like a place to store a boat, rescue cover if it goes wrong, an instructor to help you learn from your mistakes, somewhere warm to get changed, a well maintained slipway, meeting like minded people, or not needing to own a boat at all.

 

[ylop]

To my simple mind, there is too much of this ‘forced inclusion and diversity’ where boxes have to be ticked and the optics have to show the latest pc values.

There's no forced inclusion and diversity going on. People who propagate such myths are usually part of the problem. Bother to understand what's happening and why it matters to measure this stuff, challenge the status quo and show imagery that represents the organisation you want to be and you'll be far better placed to actually be inclusive. Or huff and puff and play the political correctness card and you might as well say "no need for change they let me in".

As someone said, equality and equality of opportunity are two very different things. The first is what is being forced on us in sport (any one can compete as any gender as an example),

It is really not anywhere as much as the media would like you to believe. There is a genuine issue to resolve there but from what I see most sports are working out a position on it and resolving it. its also got nothing really to do with the strategy the RYA is pursuing.

the second is what we should have and means everyone is accepted and welcomed without bias to participate.

that would be a very good start but is not actually equality of opportunity, and is certainly not equity.

Of course, the biggest barrier to I&D is money. Should I personally feel excluded from the super yachty fraternity as I can’t afford one? No, I participate in what I can afford and that has changed throughout my life as I have had funds available. Or time.

Making it about money is a massive simplification. You can make it free to participate in sailing, but you won't solve all the inclusivity issues. A belief that you have earned the luck you have in life is the sort of attitude that underpins many a sailing club and undermines the ability to be genuinely more inclusive.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

To my simple mind, there is too much of this ‘forced inclusion and diversity’ where boxes have to be ticked

I don’t think it is forced, it’s a righting of a wrong, it is being woke in the true definition of the word woke.

The whole privilege thing goes with it. It can be difficult to support when one has not experienced near universal rejection in whatever form that takes.

It is very far removed from tick boxing. That is how I see it.

 

[rogerthebodger]

That is not exclusion.

If a sailor choses not be be a member of an affiliated club that sailor IS Excluded from any sailing events run under World Sailing control

In our case it also forces sailors who only wish to be a member of a club for cheep beer to be a paying membr of the World Sailing affiliate.

We have freedom of association by law

European Convention on Human Rights - Article 11

The IOC also stated in its charter then there must be no discrimination on any grounds and if anyone i excluded for any reason that i discrimination

 

[RunAgroundHard]

If a sailor choses not be be a member of an affiliated club that sailor IS Excluded from any sailing events run under World Sailing control

In our case it also forces sailors who only wish to be a member of a club for cheep beer to be a paying membr of the World Sailing affiliate.

We have freedom of association by law

European Convention on Human Rights - Article 11

The IOC also stated in its charter then there must be no discrimination on any grounds and if anyone i excluded for any reason that i discrimination

You don’t understand what exclusion means, especially when it relates to inequality.

Perhaps you should attend a DI&E course, or do some self education.

In the example you give folks are not actively or covertly exuded as all are free to join. It is no different to having a right to drive in the UK provided you pass the test.

 

[rogerthebodger]

You don’t understand what exclusion means, especially when it relates to inequality.

Perhaps you should attend a DI&E course, or do some self education.

In the example you give folks are not actively or covertly exuded as all are free to join. It is no different to having a right to drive in the UK provided you pass the test.

Living in one of the most un equal country in the world and having lived where exclusion and discrimination was intrenched in law I do think I have a lot of personal exclusion.

Don't know where you reside but I grue up nd was educated in the UK and visited fairly obtain until I retired I do have some Idea of any diffidence.

I do understand Diversity, equity and inclusion and do accept and recognize we are or should be a Rainbow Nation

What need to happen is the people who don't accept diversity in the country I live both black and white should attend a DI&E course

Events around the world like Ukraine, France, Hong Kong and the countries the vast majority of displaced people cone from suffer exclusion and inequality, inequility will get worse and cause more unrest throughout the world.

Diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) is a term used to describe programs and policies that encourage representation and participation of diverse groups of people, including people of different genders, races and ethnicities, abilities and disabilities, religions, cultures, ages, sexual orientations and people

I will leave it their and just to agree to differ

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Living in one of the most un equal country in the world and having lived where exclusion and discrimination was intrenched in law I do think I have a lot of personal exclusion.

Don't know where you reside but I grue up nd was educated in the UK and visited fairly obtain until I retired I do have some Idea of any diffidence.

I do understand Diversity, equity and inclusion and do accept and recognize we are or should be a Rainbow Nation

What need to happen is the people who don't accept diversity in the country I live both black and white should attend a DI&E course

Events around the world like Ukraine, France, Hong Kong and the countries the vast majority of displaced people cone from suffer exclusion and inequality, inequility will get worse and cause more unrest throughout the world.

Diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) is a term used to describe programs and policies that encourage representation and participation of diverse groups of people, including people of different genders, races and ethnicities, abilities and disabilities, religions, cultures, ages, sexual orientations and people

I will leave it their and just to agree to differ

If you understand what exclusion is, then why did you state such an irrelevant example when trying to prove exclusion (especially in the context of this thread)?

Perhaps your experiences have numbed you as to what it really means.

 

[ylop]

If a sailor choses not be be a member of an affiliated club that sailor IS Excluded from any sailing events run under World Sailing control

As it would be with any other sport at a senior level.

In our case it also forces sailors who only wish to be a member of a club for cheep beer to be a paying membr of the World Sailing affiliate.

That doesn’t really make sense to me. In the U.K. many clubs have social only members, who in your context would be excluded from competition but free to go to the bar. A policy against that could be introduced by the club, by a national governing body or by local “liquor” licensing laws.

We have freedom of association by law

European Convention on Human Rights - Article 11

That doesn’t mean what you think it does! 1. The European Convention prevents STATES (eg the U.K.) from mistreating citizens - it doesn’t actually apply to most things an organisation like the RYA does (although it might it if it is acting as though it were the state - eg some official training)
2. Its primary purpose is to ensure that you are free to join an organisation if you wish to do so. Eg imagine a state which decides that sailors are troublemakers lobbying against some proposed new tax - and it seeks to ban membership of the RYA. your right to join the RYA is protected. (Although there are exceptions)
3. The reverse can also be argued - the state can’t force you to join an organisation either. BUT joining for professional or sporting reasons is not forcing you to, otherwise teachers, solicitors, barristers, nurses, etc would all be able to argue they should be able to practice without being members of the relevant professional bodies.

The IOC also stated in its charter then there must be no discrimination on any grounds and if anyone i excluded for any reason that i discrimination

I think virtually every sport at Olympic level will have some similar requirement - it allows them to enforce rules, ban cheats etc. I don’t believe that the IOC would interpret membership of a governing body as discrimination against athletes who elect not to become members.

 

[rotrax]

Exclusion in sailing is enforced by the World Sailing regulation 19 which required any one who wishes to be involved in sailing run under the rules published by world sailing must be a member in good standing of the affiliate of world sailing. In the UK this is RYA.

Where I live the World Sailing affiliate requires all members of an affiliated club must be a paying member og the World Sailing affiliate.

So there is institutional Exclusion in World Sailing IMHO of cause

Total rubbish.

Sailing and Motorboating, in the UK, can be-and is-accessed by anyone who has a boat.

We have little regulation, training and licencing requirements, compulsory insurance or qualification.

Only sailing in competition is it required to belong to an accepted National Body. Not required at all for leisure sailors.

Which is the accepted norm in almost all International sport, especially Motorsport.

I would suggest Competition Sailing has far fewer participants than leisure sailing.

As someone who has taken a National Motorsports Governing Body to task and changed their obstructive philosophy, I like to think I have some experience of the matter.