RYA to scrap tidal/non-tidal distinction

[webcraft]

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From 1 January 2017 there will no longer be separate tidal and non-tidal syllabi and certificates for Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper practical courses. In addition, sail and motor cruising training centres will no longer be identified as either tidal or non-tidal centres.

The new combined syllabi will 'ensure that all candidates will at the very least have covered the concepts of boat handling, navigating and pilotage in areas with streams, currents and significant tidal range. Wherever possible the syllabus should be delivered practically. If this is not possible, it must be covered theoretically'

I imagine on a practical level this will result in a boost for med-based centres, while removing the advantage from (eg) Gib-based schools.

- W

 

[vyv_cox]

I have to say that seems like a very questionable decision. Having sailed in the Mediterranean for the past ten years I am only too aware that my memory of the particular decisions that need to be made in tidal waters is now very rusty, but at least I had it once. I suspect that any successful non-tidal Coastal Skipper who had never sailed in tidal waters would struggle when the time came that he/she did.

 

[[70521]]

Complete and utter madness. Who do we write to so that this can be changed?

 

[Angele]

Hey. This could be a real money spinner.

Think of all those charter companies that don't want to allow a YM who has never sailed in tidal waters to take out a bareboat charter.

They would need a new qualification that they could point to and say "you can only charter the boat if you have a [name of qualification]".

I'm off to patent the "Tidemaster" qualification, that can only be taught by sailing schools who pay big fees to the Angele Yachting Rip-off (abbreviated to the AYR). See what I did there?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hey. This could be a real money spinner.

Think of all those charter companies that don't want to allow a YM who has never sailed in tidal waters to take out a bareboat charter.

They would need a new qualification that they could point to and say "you can only charter the boat if you have a [name of qualification]".

I'm off to patent the "Tidemaster" qualification, that can only be taught by sailing schools who pay big fees to the Angele Yachting Rip-off (abbreviated to the AYR). See what I did there?

I have no inside info on how charter company work , but I personal can't see any charter company refusing to charter to an YM who never sailed in tidal water , my concern is more the charter who have very litter experience if any at all charter 40 foot plus boat , and any one who think that don't happen need to spend some time out in the med .

 

[Bru]

Seems to me there's a lot of people grasping the wrong end of this particular stick!

 

[Angele]

I have no inside info on how charter company work , but I personal can't see any charter company refusing to charter to an YM who never sailed in tidal water , my concern is more the charter who have very litter experance if any at all charter 40 plus boat , and any one who think that don't happen need to spend some time out in the med .

Perhaps I should have used the roll eyes smiley.

But, out of interest, there are lots here that won't charter a boat to someone who doesn't have a Day Skipper cert, and some that will only do so to YM Coastal. (Although many will waive this if you can show them a logbook with loads of miles as skipper).

 

[SteveSarabande]

Does it also mean that to become a yachtmaster all your 2500nm can be in the med.

If so the Gib schools will be better off. At the moment they do trips along the atlantic coast to get miles for their fastrackers. Now they can go east instead and do more offshore journeys

 

[skua]

"The new combined syllabi will 'ensure that all candidates will at the very least have covered the concepts of boat handling, navigating and pilotage in areas with streams, currents and significant tidal range".

Depends on how thorough the coverage of these concepts actually is but could this potentially turn out to be an improvement on the current arrangements?

 

[Talulah]

"The new combined syllabi will 'ensure that all candidates will at the very least have covered the concepts of boat handling, navigating and pilotage in areas with streams, currents and significant tidal range".

Depends on how thorough the coverage of these concepts actually is but could this potentially turn out to be an improvement on the current arrangements?

The quote above must be read with the line following it.
Wherever possible the syllabus should be delivered practically. If this is not possible, it must be covered theoretically'


The reality is it will not be possible to deliver practically where it is currently not practical to do so.
I have no inside knowledge as to why this change has come about. As a sailing school it would have been nice to have had some reasoning behind it.

Meanwhile I wonder how many sailing schools in the Med are going to see a downturn in bookings as prospective customers decide to wait until 2017.
This should have been effective immediately. (If at all.)

 

[GHA]

I have to say that seems like a very questionable decision. Having sailed in the Mediterranean for the past ten years I am only too aware that my memory of the particular decisions that need to be made in tidal waters is now very rusty, but at least I had it once. I suspect that any successful non-tidal Coastal Skipper who had never sailed in tidal waters would struggle when the time came that he/she did.

Depends where the tidal course was, doesn't it? The canaries are technically tidal, but not really much of a big deal and day to day can be mostly ignored. So if that was someone's only experience then they won't really learn much.

 

[Uricanejack]

All they are saying is the syllabus will be the same regardless of where you take the course. One place you will see it the other it will just be the book. I suppose its partly the result of pressure from some schools but more likely pressure from folks who want to take there course in the sun. If the RYA doesn't provide what they want. They will go and take a course with some one else.

I got the basic idea when I was a bout 4 yr old and was at the beach, with a bucket and spade. when the tide came in and washed my sand castle away

 

[nigelmercier]

Seems to me there's a lot of people grasping the wrong end of this particular stick!

It's not just me then. I thought I had missed something.

 

[trapezeartist]

At the time I did my Dazed Kipper I happened to live about mid-way between Alicante and Gibraltar. I opted for Gibraltar in order to do the tidal course. Unless they intend to sail nowhere but in the Med, no prospective Dazed Kipper student with multiple brain cells would choose Alicante (or similar).

Or taking the opposite point of view, perhaps those of us sailing around the British Isles and "La Rochelle to the Elbe" forget that we have tidal heights and streams that are pretty exceptional. Skippers in most parts of the world can probably muddle by without any tidal knowledge.

 

[Uricanejack]

How many of you ever actually bother to do more than look at HW LW at a standard port. or HW dover for the current atlas?
When was the last time you figured out a secondary port time for a height of tide or height for a time at a secondary port?
Without getting it from the internet.

0r ever use vol 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8
Are they included in a day skipper course in the Solent.

For most people its a class room exercise.

 

[Lyndsey Doyle]

How many of you ever actually bother to do more than look at HW LW at a standard port. or HW dover for the current atlas?
When was the last time you figured out a secondary port time for a height of tide or height for a time at a secondary port?
Without getting it from the internet.

0r ever use vol 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8
Are they included in a day skipper course in the Solent.

For most people its a class room exercise.

Hi there, I will rise to the bait... it's very much not a classroom exercise here in Brittany! I don't use the internet for any passage planning input except the weather, all the rest is on paper, using paper TSA's and almanacs, paper charts, paper pilot books and paper notes.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'the current atlas', tidal stream atlases aren't 'current', and don't normally go out of date.

Vols 2-8 of what? Doesn't ring a bell but sounds intriguing.

I don't know about Day Skipper, but YM Coastal/Offshore definitely include secondary ports.

I think the RYA changes are intended to make sure that everyone doing any course is taught about, and tested on, tides... personally I think that's a great idea.

I'm presuming that until now, courses in non-tidal places (basically the Med) just pretended tides didn't exist! Which is a quite bizarre notion to some of us, but makes sense in a way if you never leave the Med I suppose.
Interesting thread, enjoy the sun, LD


As an aside, are there actually any TSA's which DO go out of date regularly?

 

[Sans Bateau]

It's not just me then. I thought I had missed something.

I can see the point in the change too. its raising the non tidal education and not reducing the tidal education. Although the theory behind going through a classroom exercise in tidal navigation is all very well, the practical side is very different, as well anyone will know who sails around the waters of the UK or Brittany.

I can imagine the surprise for a novice med qualified skipper and his crew as he tries to sail from Alderney to Cherbourg just as a spring ebb starts in the Alderney race, even more fun if he plans to make the most of the fresh F5. SWly.

 

[WFA]

Knowing what affects changes in charted and predicted data is essential for inland, coastal and ocean skippers alike. Hydrographers can only drawn our attention to conditions they have already recorded and predict will happen.
Tidal heights and streams matter most when the water is shallow. Heights are as important when approaching beaches with off laying secondary bars such as in the Med or Baltic as they are when entering UK east coast estuaries. Not being able to recognise when wind driven currents (not leeway) exist and likely to endanger a passage, most particularly around a headland or on entering a small harbour on a lee shore, is irresponsible. Yachts are regularly lost in the Med due to changes in local conditions. Most of these losses could have been prevented if skippers paid more attention to basic seamanship data ie, barometer, wind strength, direction, duration, actual depth vs charted depth - Compass Course vs COG, pilotage notes etc.
RYA centres are independent and cluster around regular demand for RYA credentials rather than convenience or clever marketing strategies. RYA is the UK's national governing body for all things boating and the UK is surrounded by tidal waters so it follows that if you sail abroad you have a choice - qualify as a RYA skipper or look for a more attractive examination body.
Bottom line - what matters most is what you put into practice not what you think is right or wrong.

 

[[70521]]

How many of you ever actually bother to do more than look at HW LW at a standard port. or HW dover for the current atlas?
When was the last time you figured out a secondary port time for a height of tide or height for a time at a secondary port?
Without getting it from the internet.

0r ever use vol 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8
Are they included in a day skipper course in the Solent.

For most people its a class room exercise.

I to will rise to the bait.

I do secondary port calculations all the time on paper with a pencil, ruler and rubber. While I can get into Plymouth at any state of the tide that is not true of most places I visit.

 

[Minchsailor]

How many of you ever actually bother to do more than look at HW LW at a standard port. or HW dover for the current atlas?
When was the last time you figured out a secondary port time for a height of tide or height for a time at a secondary port?
Without getting it from the internet.

0r ever use vol 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8
Are they included in a day skipper course in the Solent.

For most people its a class room exercise.

All of the time. It only takes moments. It also gives an idea of the 'broader picture'.

A couple of years ago I had a crew member who had recently completed day skipper at one of the Gib. schools. He was about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I asked him to do some simple tidal calculations planning for the day ahead and he had not a clue how to go about it.