RYA Survey To Shape Future Direction

[Boathook]

No, but they can make it feasible. If nobody in the UK was qualified the Greeks would have to choose between having no UK charter trade or allowing people to charter with no quals as they always had.

The point where the local Port Authorities could make it compulsory was the point where large numbers of people already had it.

I only got the icc to keep the French authorities happy, not that they have ever checked it.

I got the icc before any tests came in when any "senior" person in an rya recognised club could say you were proficient. Happy days !

 

[Boathook]

Started to fill in the survey then stopped as what has my religion to do with sailing or if I am male/female Heterosexual or Straight etc or am I black/ white typical RYA very poor formulated survey in my opinion and who really wants this information !

I had the same thought and stopped filling it in. Might have another go ....

 

[lustyd]

Lots of positive outcomes - or in some cases, less bad outcomes (like Brexit VAT and Schengen when the RYA, CA and government officials hands were tied by what was decreed in our politicians “deal” they left us with.)
But busy now - doing priority voluntary stuff - but if have time will add some more.
But frankly no list of successes by RYA/CA will satisfy the arm chair moaning minnies - most of whom don’t do anything directly to help but quick to complain.

They’ve achieved nothing at all with Brexit or VAT, both are exactly as they’d be without the RYA. We don’t even have good guidance on crossing the channel. If anything the seagrass situation is worse because of their virtue signalling. Red diesel is not only still an issue but we have the filthiest diesel I’ve seen anywhere which causes constant issues. Paper charts are a good example where they were present for the conversation but utterly useless.

I can’t think of a single success, but all the folk involved have positions on the committee and gleefully tell people of their involvement.

 

[newtothis]

I must confess I declined all of those questions. Sailing should be open for all and totally blind to sex and colour.

That's rather the point of asking those questions. You can't tell if sailing is blind to sex and colour unless you know the sex and colour of those involved in it. I'd suggest it is in everyone's interests that it is not seen as pale, male and stale. Anyone complaining about media portrayals of 'millionaire yachties' should not be complaining about efforts to prove otherwise.

 

[Boathook]

Just completed the survey and found it annoying that I couldn't tick multiple boxes, especially on questions 104 to 107 ? about cruising where i covered a few areas both equally.

 

[ylop]

I think I agree.

Whereas I’d disagree! An interesting comparison might be to mountaineering - the BMC is the NGB for various climbing sports but the majority of its membership are not competitors. The model you are suggesting is almost what exists in cycling - British Cycling focussed predominantly on sport NGB responsibilities and Cycling UK covering the non sporting cyclist - whilst they work together sometimes they are competing over the same resources/funding etc.

So should the RYA be encouraging people into the sport for racers or pulling up the drawbridge for cruisers? They can't sensibly do both.

I don’t see why there is a conflict (nor that the two groups are diametrically opposed) - if it can work for sailor and mobos together I don’t see why dialogue between people with many overlapping interests can’t resolve the areas of contention.

The RYA is a business, and it's beholden to other businesses. The CA is a club with its members interests at heart.

Except that constitutionally the RYA is a membership organisation, beholden to its members.

 

[lustyd]

I don’t think either is driven by members any more than government is driven by voters. Arguably the CA has more positions available so appears more inclusive, but both are overly bureaucratic and ineffective as far as I can tell and exist mostly for the purpose of having AGMs and the like.

 

[flaming]

Is there a regulation the RYA have fought off? It feels to me more like they embrace regulations and then profit from them, often offering to manage them and charge for them. A couple of decades ago nobody needed an ICC. Then the RYA took control, monetized it, and now I need one to charter in Greece renewed every five years with the RYA taking the money. I doubt Greece would have demanded ICCs from UK sailors if many people hadn’t already bought them, since that would have killed UK charter sales in Greece. It feels like Greece only made it compulsory once most visitors already held one.

Even by the standards of this forum that is severely tortured logic.

 

[flaming]

I don’t see why there is a conflict (nor that the two groups are diametrically opposed) - if it can work for sailor and mobos together I don’t see why dialogue between people with many overlapping interests can’t resolve the areas of contention.

Spot on.

I always find it weird when people claim that racers and cruisers have such different interests and cannot be represented by one body. I find this weird because I am both...

 

[lustyd]

Spot on.

I always find it weird when people claim that racers and cruisers have such different interests and cannot be represented by one body. I find this weird because I am both...

We can’t even agree on the best propellor!

 

[flaming]

We can’t even agree on the best propellor!

And don't get us started on anchors...

 

[st599]

I must confess I declined all of those questions. Sailing should be open for all and totally blind to sex and colour.

But it isn't, judging by the demographics out on the water. To understand how big an issue it is it needs some form of monitoring.

Many clubs say they're open to all. But go in there and it's cliquey, and there's little if any representation of minorities (BAME, LGBTQ+, etc.). There are many reasons, unconscious bias, the optics of the sport being elitist in the UK, access to parts of the coast due to poor public transport etc.

 

[Mark-1]

Even by the standards of this forum that is severely tortured logic.

I was chartering at the time and that's certainly how it felt to me. There certainly wasn't a season where all the charter companies went out of business because there weren't enough qualified customers. (Maybe there was and I missed it.)

Spot on.

I always find it weird when people claim that racers and cruisers have such different interests and cannot be represented by one body. I find this weird because I am both...

When I'm racing I want as many people out as possible, and when I'm cruising I want as few as possible, as explained above. (Perhaps that's a South Coast centric, view. Entirely possible that cruising sailors in other areas want more participants.) The RYA has massive benefits if you race and massive benefits if you work in "paid" sail training, it all gets a bit woolly when you think about cruising.

 

[Mark-1]

But it isn't, judging by the demographics out on the water. To understand how big an issue it is it needs some form of monitoring.

Many clubs say they're open to all. But go in there and it's cliquey, and there's little if any representation of minorities (BAME, LGBTQ+, etc.). There are many reasons, unconscious bias, the optics of the sport being elitist in the UK, access to parts of the coast due to poor public transport etc.

If we're going to say sailing isn't currently sex/colour blind (I don't agree it isn't) then that's all the more reason not to tell them what your sex and colour is. They can't discriminate if they don't know.

 

[flaming]

I was chartering at the time and that's certainly how it felt to me. There certainly wasn't a season where all the charter companies went out of business because there weren't enough qualified customers. (Maybe there was and I missed it.)



When I'm racing I want as many people out as possible, and when I'm cruising I want as few as possible, as explained above. (Perhaps that's a South Coast centric, view. Entirely possible that cruising sailors in other areas want more participants.) The RYA has massive benefits if you race and massive benefits if you work in "paid" sail training, it all gets a bit woolly when you think about cruising.

I mean, the argument that the RYA had anything to do with what qualifications are required by the Greeks, or Croatians, or Turkish, or French or.....

It's such obvious nonsense. And of course the ICC was introduced in 1998 by an international body that had nothing whatsoever to do with the RYA. And if you want an ICC in the UK you do not have to go to the RYA, you can also go to the British Sub Aqua Club.

The RYA running the world's most widely recognised training scheme is of course of massive benefit to cruisers.

I also dispute entirely that cruisers benefit from as few people as possible. Take away the other cruisers and you also take away all of the businesses that exist to serve cruisers. The chandlers that stock the bit you need, the riggers, the sailmakers, the visitors moorings etc etc...

 

[flaming]

If we're going to say sailing isn't currently sex/colour blind (I don't agree it isn't) then that's all the more reason not to tell them what your sex and colour is. They can't discriminate if they don't know.

But the people asking the question here are not the people doing the discriminating, they're the people trying to discover if there is a problem. And they can't know if there is or not unless they collect the data.

 

[ylop]

But the people asking the question here are not the people doing the discriminating, they're the people trying to discover if there is a problem. And they can't know if there is or not unless they collect the data.

And cynically, they are the people trying to access government funding to support our sport/pastime, and not unreasonably when spending tax payers money those people want evidence that either you are already representative (almost no sport in the uk) or are trying to address the reasons for such (probably unintended) bias.

 

[Mark-1]

I mean, the argument that the RYA had anything to do with what qualifications are required by the Greeks, or Croatians, or Turkish, or French or.....

I don't think I wrote what you think I wrote.

The RYA running the world's most widely recognised training scheme is of course of massive benefit to cruisers.

How? (I'm talking about amateurs here, clearly pros gain huge benefit as I've already said.)

But the people asking the question here are not the people doing the discriminating

Well if they don't discriminate and have no future intention to discriminate they don't need to know. If they think training centres/clubs/race organisers discriminate they need to address questions to them, not to participants. (Interestingly, they didn't ask in the questionnaire if I'd ever seen discrimination in sailing and if you they were worried about discrimination that would be a very useful question to ask.)

I also dispute entirely that cruisers benefit from as few people as possible. Take away the other cruisers and you also take away all of the businesses that exist to serve cruisers. The chandlers that stock the bit you need, the riggers, the sailmakers, the visitors moorings etc etc...

There are plenty of places with far lower density of boats than the UK and they manage fine/better. In fact I'd say the main reason people keep boats abroad is less crowding, cheaper moorings (and better weather). As for moorings there's a waiting list for moorings at every club I can think of, and visitors berths are frequently full - I tired and failed three times to get a walk ashore at Bembridge this year. I really don't think cruising sailing in the UK needs more participants. In contrast I think racing sailing could do with more, in some cases a lot more.

 

[flaming]

How? (I'm talking about amateurs here, clearly pros gain huge benefit as I've already said.)

Because lots of cruisers want to learn from experienced and highly qualified instructors....

And the way that the RYA runs and administers the training section does tend to ensure that when you book a course the quality of the instruction is good. I think we forget how fortunate we are in the UK to have that sort of oversight and a well defined sylabus, in plenty of places it simply does not exists and as a result the teaching is patchy at best.

 

[ylop]

We can’t even agree on the best propellor!

And don't get us started on anchors...

But I don’t think a sports governing body needs to tell people which prop or anchor is best?

When I'm racing I want as many people out as possible, and when I'm cruising I want as few as possible, as explained above.

I suspect neither view represents all racers nor all cruisers. It’s like a governing body would have to manage different interests, agendas and priorities. Prima facie more people in your racing fleet seems a good idea - although perhaps not if they are all beating you! But at some large events there must be a desire by some to have elite classes which are less likely to have their race disrupted or boat damaged by an idiot amateur. Cruising alone has many merits but there’s enough “cruise in company” and “club / class musters” etc to convince me that not every cruiser is seeking to be away from it all.

(Perhaps that's a South Coast centric, view. Entirely possible that cruising sailors in other areas want more participants.)

The simple fact the south coast is so busy suggests that your hypothesis is at least overly simplistic.

The RYA has massive benefits if you race and massive benefits if you work in "paid" sail training, it all gets a bit woolly when you think about cruising.

I mean other than providing a degree of standardisation across the training so you can join the pathway and hop between schools, get bits of paper recognised internationally and i am sure repeatedly reminding various regulatory bodies that the current system largely works whenever a bright spark in Whitehall realises that anyone can buy a boat and sail it without licenses etc.

If there was really a conflict between the ordinary yachtsperson and the training schools, it would surely have resulted in the RYA encouraging the government to introduce mandatory licensing! It hasn’t and the RYA has been vocal against such ideas.