RYA Radar Course - is it worth it?

[Talulah]

COLREGs also call for radar to be on at all times (if fitted) and that the person operating it knows how to use it. If ever you encounter fog, you'll be really pleased you did the course. And don't forget the need to sound your IMO approved and certified horn when in fog (4 secs every 2 mins for a motor boat if under way).

Oh dear. Turning into another ColReg thread. (And radar is not required to be on at all times if fitted.)

 

[Piers]

Oh dear. Turning into another ColReg thread. (And radar is not required to be on at all times if fitted.)

Oh dear indeed. I feared this would start a discussion. I will have to beg to differ re 'on at all times'.

Piers

 

[Talulah]

Oh dear indeed. I feared this would start a discussion. I will have to beg to differ re 'on at all times'.

Piers

The colregs were changed not that long ago.
5. Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

 

[st599]

With the acquisition of a new boat I have radar now and I didn't have it before. Is it worth going on the RYA radar course?

Reading the manual and looking at the screen I have worked out that the little yellow dot is a boat (or maybe a buoy) in the distance and the joined up yellow bits are the land. Try not to bash in to them.

Will an 8 hour course tell me a lot more stuff that I should know?

From looking at the screen you need to work out how to use it for collision avoidance and navigation.

Now you have it, colregs requires its correct usage.

 

[Talulah]

From looking at the screen you need to work out how to use it for collision avoidance and navigation.

Now you have it, colregs requires its correct usage.

Care to quote where in the ColRegs it sais that?

 

[Piers]

The colregs were changed not that long ago.
5. Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Hi Talulah,

Rule 6 and 7. Robert Avis worked with the MAIB and MCA on accident investigations. He pointed out in his RYA radar course that rule 7(b) 'fitted and operational' did not mean 'on or off'. It meant 'if it's there it must be on'.

Piers

 

[Talulah]

Hi Talulah,

Rule 6 and 7. Robert Avis worked with the MAIB and MCA on accident investigations. He pointed out in his RYA radar course that rule 7(b) 'fitted and operational' did not mean 'on or off'. It meant 'if it's there it must be on'.

Piers

I'm not disagreeing with Robert Avis and I don't know when he said that.

Rule 6 Determining a Safe Speed
Doesn't actually say Radar must be used. It just states that when using it allowance must be made for its characteristics etc.

Rule 7 Determining the risk of a collision certainly suggest that Radar should be used. However, rule 5 was amended to include "appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions "

Others on here will add to the discussion.

 

[Piers]

I'm not disagreeing with Robert Avis and I don't know when he said that.

Rule 6 Determining a Safe Speed
Doesn't actually say Radar must be used. It just states that when using it allowance must be made for its characteristics etc.

Rule 7 Determining the risk of a collision certainly suggest that Radar should be used. However, rule 5 was amended to include "appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions "

Others on here will add to the discussion.

Hi Talulah,

6(b) adds: 'Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:' etc, whilst rule 7 adds 'Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational'

Given he was a radar guru I've always believed his knowledge of radar.

Thinking about it, when I wrote the article on his course for MBM some years ago, I met with the both the MCA and MAIB. Maybe I still have the contact details of the guys I spoke with. If so, I'll email asking for their current interpretation. I'm in the Middle East at the moment and I won't be able to do it until I'm home, so it may take a few days.

All the best. Piers

 

[Talulah]

Hi Talulah,

6(b) adds: 'Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:' etc, whilst rule 7 adds 'Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational'

Given he was a radar guru I've always believed his knowledge of radar.

Thinking about it, when I wrote the article on his course for MBM some years ago, I met with the both the MCA and MAIB. Maybe I still have the contact details of the guys I spoke with. If so, I'll email asking for their current interpretation. I'm in the Middle East at the moment and I won't be able to do it until I'm home, so it may take a few days.

All the best. Piers

Will be interesting to get his response. Read rule 6 though. It's not relevant to the 'must use'. When it states 'Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:' it is just refering to making allowances for how the radar may be perceived given it's limitations, number of ships, conditions etc.
Rule 7 though seems to contradict rule 5. Rule 7 suggest 'must' but rule 5 suggests 'depending upon prevailing circumstance.'

 

[oceanfroggie]

Modern radars are easy to use. It's not rocket science looking at a radar display, any games console player would figure out in seconds how to interpret what targets are in conflict or not.

Peter you will find Radar an added comfort in poor vis, and a great get you home safe tool if ever caught in fog. It is a good idea to leave it on even in good vis, not because of any rule, but because you get used to comparing what's on the display with what you can see going on around you in the real world, so when using it for real it seems familiar and comfortable.

We've got caught a number of times over the years and having radar enabled us to complete some long passages that would otherwise have been cancelled. Often the fog only lasted for the first few hours of these passages for the remainder to be in blazing sunshine. At night too its proven to be reassuring, as well as a good backup nav tool in case the plotter died. Where we cruise off the SW & S & W coast of Ireland shipping density is low, but we depend on radar to avoid us running over other small targets rather than shipping. If your radar is connected to fast rate gyro (ie often on auto pilot CPU), you will be able to use MARPA for target tracking. Just click on a target and you get it's heading, speed and warnings if it is in conflict with your course and speed. Most recent radars allow you to auto track up to 10 MARPA targets.

 

[RogerRat]

Peter you will find Radar an added comfort in poor vis, and a great get you home safe tool if ever caught in fog. It is a good idea to leave it on even in good vis, not because of any rule, but because you get used to comparing what's on the display with what you can see going on around you in the real world, so when using it for real it seems familiar and comfortable.

Couldn't agree more, it may look silly to see an open array buzzing round in the Solent or heading into Portsmouth on a fine day but the reason's simple, a comparison to radar image at different ranges to what you are actually seeing. Slow moving yachts can look like a buoy on radar when helming a fast cruiser.

The IOW ferries can sometimes look like they're coming towards you when you're closing in from a distance behind!

 

[PEJ]

If your radar is connected to fast rate gyro (ie often on auto pilot CPU), you will be able to use MARPA for target tracking. Just click on a target and you get it's heading, speed and warnings if it is in conflict with your course and speed. Most recent radars allow you to auto track up to 10 MARPA targets.

Yes. Mine has got MARPA.

I mucked around with it when at anchor in Osbourne Bay one time. I worked out how to track the cruise ships coming around the brambles and out past us but it kept sounding an alarm saying they were going to crash in to us. Since we were in 3m of water in the anchorage and they were passing by in the channel I figured it has got it wrong! It maybe down to adjusting the settings of how close is too close.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Hi Peter MARPA won't work if your vessel is at anchor because your GPS track/COG is constantly changing slightly as you swing on the hook. MARPA needs the boat to be moving so it has a constant track even if the track is changing. Also cruise ships executing a slow turn will temporarily have a predictive track projecting outside of the arced track they actually travel in the turn. Hence targets on the outside of the turn dead ahead may temporarily be in conflict depending on speeds. Unlike AIS marpa is not as good taking rate of turn into account. But radar sees everything, AIS doesn't. Noel

 

[Piers]

Hi Everyone,

I've dug out the relevant email from the MCA for when I wrote the MBM article re whether a radar must be on.

This thread was from the MCA

MESSAGE FROM Piers du Pre:
COLREGS - a question regarding the use of radar.

Rules 6(b) and 7(c) state "operational radar".

If I have radar fitted to my vessel, does "operational" mean,

a) It is turned on and working?

b) It is an operational set, but using it depends upon whether I have it turned on or not?

Piers
-----------------------------------
MESSAGE FROM Paul Wilkins:
COLREGS - a question regarding the use of radar.

Dear Mr. du Pré,

Of course, in the context of Rule 6, "operational" means working and turned on and working, (otherwise one that was not turned on would be a major characteristic under 6(b)(i)).

If it is turned off, it might as well not exist and you cannot include the radar on board within consideration of safe speed in accordance with Rule 6. Additionally if you have radar in circumstances where it could be of value such as in restricted visibility and then decide not to turn it on or use it, you could be in violation of Rule 2 and/or Rule 5.

I trust that this answers your query.

Regards

Paul Wilkins
Navigation Manager
MCA
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Piers