RYA - lost the plot?

[JumbleDuck]

So the RYA qualifications have moved with the times and addressing today's needs rather than those of the past.

I fear that you err in assuming that everyone nowadays sails a great big boat from marina to marina. There are still an awful lot of smaller boats around, though of course their owners may not be quite such a ready market for RYA courses.

 

[Seajet]

I fear that you err in assuming that everyone nowadays sails a great big boat from marina to marina. There are still an awful lot of smaller boats around, though of course their owners may not be quite such a ready market for RYA courses.

Jumbleduck,

fear not, even here in Chi / Solent it is certainly NOT marina to marina.

Re yachtmaster offshore - proper tickets I had sailed across the Channel quite a few times - and it's 60 - 80 miles from here to anywhere sensible - since 17 after simply reading books, swinging the compass and a bit of common sense.

Did the Night school Nav 2 years later in case I'd missed something ( hadn't so sadly no magic ) , as it all worked but seemed a bit vague ( I took it seriously trail log , sextant / lighthouse distances off, but RDF was comically vague ) - managed 2 dozen or so Channel cossings without Decca or GPS before we had that stuff.

I was happy to continue but then BAe went down the pan and I took voluntary redundancy, as part of the deal I got a Yachtmaster Offshore deal - I'd never have forked out for it myself , but I managed to latch on to a ' retraining budget ' in case becoming an instructor was a Plan B source of employment.

The girl in ' Human Resources ' looked doubtful, as if I was after a sailing hoiliday - in December UK - so I said if they didn't approve it I'd officially apply for pro Morris Dancer training.

I got my YMO course and ticket, and having observed much better sailors than me working 7 days a week, responsible for everyone on board who would be clamouring to go out into gales + as they'd paid, cooking for everyone to top it, I quickly wrote that option off to Plan z !

 

[Sandy Bottom]

Golly, phoenixed from a flounce!

It's impossible to answer that questions as boats are linked to people and it's not on to drag them into a discussion that has precisely nothing to do with them.. Then again you surely know that, or perhaps you don't. Why not stick to an area you know something about?

Why all the venom dom? All that the Cap'n has said is pretty much correct, and he has put people straight where they have got things wrong about the system.
I'm no great fan of the RYA system, but I have worked within it for 40+ years and, whilst it's far from perfect it does the job. Most instructors / examiners that I've met over that time have been decent fellas, up for a beer and a yarn - I have certainly seen zero evidence of large scale corruption within the system and it seems wrong to tar so many decent people without hard evidence - do you not think that you might be over-egging the corruption bit?
They are, for the most part, decent people - if you are going to try to tar them all with this brush then really it's time for some hard evidence not just some allusions to isolated incidences in some far off lands :encouragement:
Give the Cap'n a break - he has to live in Gibraltar after all.
Steve

 

[JumbleDuck]

No it isn't and no they aren't.

Ah. My mistake. I had assumed that there was a tidal endorsement for some. Well, in that case I was completely wrong, and this change is nothing to get worked up about. Sorry, chaps. Sorry, RYA.

 

[dom]

Why all the venom dom? All that the Cap'n has said is pretty much correct, and he has put people straight where they have got things wrong about the system.
I'm no great fan of the RYA system, but I have worked within it for 40+ years and, whilst it's far from perfect it does the job. Most instructors / examiners that I've met over that time have been decent fellas, up for a beer and a yarn - I have certainly seen zero evidence of large scale corruption within the system and it seems wrong to tar so many decent people without hard evidence - do you not think that you might be over-egging the corruption bit?
They are, for the most part, decent people - if you are going to try to tar them all with this brush then really it's time for some hard evidence not just some allusions to isolated incidences in some far off lands :encouragement:
Give the Cap'n a break - he has to live in Gibraltar after all.
Steve

Okay, I know of a couple of folk who obtained 'no'test' YM Offshore Certs in London for the purposes of chartering a boat. I really can't see how this storm in an eggcup calls into question the good reputation of the RYA as a whole! Aside from that I basically share your sentiments.

Returning to the fast-track question and my point on superyachts. Many of us on here naturally think of YMs as sailing a boat moderately proficiently, doing a bit of pile bashing and a few tidal calcs. For many years the RYA provided a certification process for this, which in turn provided the foundations for a cottage industry of sailing schools largely staffed by great chaps who enjoyed sailing and were happy to have something to do whilst earning a few bob to supplement their pension. Nothing wrong with that.

And then slowly another market developed, namely super-yachts (> 35m)and increasingly mega-yachts (> 60m). Go and visit Feadship and you will be surprised at how much has changed over the years, in particular the toning down of the nautical theme in favour of luxury and a cruise ship ability to run the thing as a commercial venture ($100,000 p/wk is fairly std). One boat I know (80m) has capacity for 10-15 guests and requires 21 crew at sea of which 6 are basically for the saily bits and 10 for the luxury experience and 5 in between.

It is into this sector that the fast-trackers mostly step and I understand from the RYA that it now accounts for c.70% of all YMs. It's a great business and credit to the RYA for putting "Brand UK" out there and creating something commercial (as in really earn a living) and positive for British youngsters. This new 'business' naturally rubs a bit with with the 'old' YM industry, but neither is better and change is for the better here. Both must now learn to co-exist happily.

BTW when the newly minted YMs arrive on their new boat the next part of their training is borrowed straight from the airline and hotel industry: how to address people, how to stand, the importance of looking A1 smart, what shoes to wear, how to serve a drink, how to complement the ladies (yup you learn that!) how to handle medical emergencies, how to arrange secure telecom links and so on. These kids gradually grow up, move to the bridge, look fantastic, carry themselves fantastically and a whole world of opportunity opens for them.

One day they may own their own boat and I'll wager that by then they'll be perfectly capable of ...dare I say it teaching 'old' YM courses :encouragement:

If this is all a bit waffly (suspect it is) I guess my point is that us older hands should cheer these fast-trackers on and fully support them in their nautical journey.

 

[Babylon]

I've only read pages 1 & 6 of this thread, so apologies if the point has been made already:

I've only ever subjected myself to training and assessment to ascertain for myself my own level of ability and confidence as a private boat-owner and non-chartering sailor.

For this, the RYA ladder-system, pre-course requirements (e.g. miles sailed, etc) and course content at various levels (CC, DS theory, DS practical, YM theory, etc) worked perfectly in taking me from complete novice with no knowledge of anything to reasonably competent sailor. (Much of course depends on the quality of the school's instructor, but in my experience this has generally been very good, and there should always be a minimum standard of skill and experience before anyone qualifies as an instructor under the system.) I've now easily got all the qualifying miles etc to go for YM, but haven't needed to do so. AND there are undoubtably thousands of other leisure sailors in exactly the same happy position, confident that they can put to sea with a good level of understanding and knowledge of their own capabilities.

So what that the RYA scheme has evolved slightly over time to account for commercial pressures, branding necessities, etc? Any fool can blag his way through life, make up a qualification etc - but ultimately he'll only be fooling himself.

Look at it this way: if one removed the RYA entirely, there'd be no common standard of training, and a hugely smaller yachting scene!

 

[awol]

Okay, I know of a couple of folk who obtained 'no'test' YM Offshore Certs in London for the purposes of chartering a boat. I really can't see how this storm in an eggcup calls into question the good reputation of the RYA as a whole!

It may not tarnish the RYA but you and your friends don't come out very well. You appear to condone fraud and instead of doing the right thing and reporting the fraudsters, you then castigate the RYA.
"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing." - you can still do something if your assertions are true.

 

[dom]

It may not tarnish the RYA but you and your friends don't come out very well. You appear to condone fraud and instead of doing the right thing and reporting the fraudsters, you then castigate the RYA.
"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing." - you can still do something if your assertions are true.

If this is castigation I suspect the RYA can live with it !!!

"It is into this sector that the fast-trackers mostly step and I understand from the RYA that it now accounts for c.70% of all YMs. It's a great business and credit to the RYA for putting "Brand UK" out there and creating something commercial (as in really earn a living) and positive for British youngsters."

​

As for reporting it, imagine how snowed under the police would be if we all chose to report every little speeding or parking infringement. To say that UK motorway traffic 'illegally' flows at 80mph is surely not a condemnation of UK law and order?

 

[Tranona]

I fear that you err in assuming that everyone nowadays sails a great big boat from marina to marina. There are still an awful lot of smaller boats around, though of course their owners may not be quite such a ready market for RYA courses.

Not at all - of course there are people with small boats, but I would suggest that they represent a small minority of today's market for training and qualifications. Anyway the syllabus prepares them to sail in all sorts of locations. It is up to them once they have understood the principles to apply them to their sailing pattern - just the same as in any other educational or training situation.

How many times have we heard here how few people are entering the pastime in small boats? What about all the people who don't own a boat and charter big boats? The explosion in crewed charter and private boats creating a demand for young professional sailors?

The qualifications are equally applicable to people with small boats, but would suggest that the majority of those who want to progress to Offshore would do so through a sailing school for sound economic and educational reasons.

As I said earlier, this is not the 1970's when a Westerly Centaur was the pinnacle of a cruiser's sailing ambition. The RYA like the rest of the sailing "industry" has to move with the times.

 

[Bob Stay]

Hello a different perspective here.. I took a practical, in familiar waters (Falmouth Roads) on a little plastic boat ( Bav 36), in nice summer weather.

It wasn't remotely challenging, the tattooed ex-navy examiner blatantly signed me off, as a pass, after a few minutes chatting about our various experiences of ships and the sea.

Obviously I had learned my lights and shapes to perfection, why mess about.

I wanted to be really put through the mill,.. but on a Bermudan, in fine weather, how exactly could he have assessed my ability to tackle probs like a mate breaking a bone, in rough conditions, on a lee shore in bad vis, with a rope round the prop? I find sailing frightening and dangerous, quite often. The empowering feeling of coming through a bastard of a situation, by luck or skill, is part of it, and why one sometimes strolls down the high street of a strange port with a bit of a swagger.

Each exam must, by definition, be widely different, but the same ticket is granted whether it's taken in benign weather on an easy to sail vessel, or a hardcore old lugger in a gale in fog.

. I felt a bit let down, and wish I'd done it on a historic rig such as Eve of St Mawes, ( the only non-Bermudan doing YM prep and exams I think) in crappy weather, under stress.
Don't we do the whole rigmarole to gain a sense of achievement?

By the way, a 'fast-tracker' was another candidate, lovely chap but he couldn't tie two ropes together and should not have been there..

 

[JumbleDuck]

Not at all - of course there are people with small boats, but I would suggest that they represent a small minority of today's market for training and qualifications.

Perhaps that's because RYA qualifications are not aimed at anyone without a boat, or access to a boat, of at least 10m? Chicken and egg.

Of course it's up to a commercial training provider to decide who they want to train. I am a little uneasy, though, that they have in their own financial interests excluded many sailors from qualifications required by the MCA.

I've noticed with interest, by the way, that while there are lot of new, big sailing yachts on the Clyde, they fade away as you head north. Very few of them seem to make it north of Ardnamurchan. Or maybe people there are skinter and run older boats.

 

[Tranona]

Perhaps that's because RYA qualifications are not aimed at anyone without a boat, or access to a boat, of at least 10m? Chicken and egg.

No idea how you come to that conclusion. The basic structure and syllabus is very little different to the one I took in the 1980s. Even then if you wanted to undertake the practical preparation and exam with a sailing school it would be on a minimum of 32'. Think of all the Fulmars, Sigmas etc popular with sailing schools at the time. Obvious really if you want to run a school economically and give the participants experience of all the roles on a yacht.

Just fail to see why you think it is biased against small boat owners.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just fail to see why you think it is biased against small boat owners.

I've already covered this. You can't do qualifying miles for Yachtmaster^TMin a boat under 7m LWL, and there is a minimum size for the exam which you will recall they hastily increased on the fly last year when they couldn't find a local examiner for a forumite. I think it's now 10m LOA, because we had a discussion about the Contessa 32 being excluded as too small. I have an email about it from them at home, where I am not.

So, even if I was tempted to take the exam (I'm not, because I don't need it and I don't do exams for fun) there is no way that in my 8m LOA / 6.5m LWL) boat I could accumulate the miles. It's a bit like saying that you have to take driving lessons in a Range-Rover.

I'm not as bothered about the requirement for a bigger boat for the exam, though even 10m sounds a wee bit small for a qualification which, with endorsement, can be used instead of a proper Board of Trade Certificate to skipper a 24m, commercial vessel.

As I have said, it doesn't matter in the least while certificates are unnecessary for yachtsmen, but if compulsory qualification ever came in I think there would need to be a route for boats between keelboats and larger yachts.

 

[laika]

As I have said, it doesn't matter in the least while certificates are unnecessary for yachtsmen

Call me madcap but might the time to consider a certificate of competence for people sailing small boats be in the period between announcement and implementation of legislation requiring a certificate of competence for people sailing small boats?

 

[doug748]

I am late to the fray and know nowt. Could someone tell me:

Do you now get the same ticket if you take the Yachtmeister practical test in the Med waters of Cap Ferrat as up the Walton Backwaters?

 

[Tranona]

I've already covered this. You can't do qualifying miles for Yachtmaster^TMin a boat under 7m LWL, and there is a minimum size for the exam which you will recall they hastily increased on the fly last year when they couldn't find a local examiner for a forumite. I think it's now 10m LOA, because we had a discussion about the Contessa 32 being excluded as too small. I have an email about it from them at home, where I am not.


/QUOTE]

There is a logic in that as a boat less than 7m LWL would not get Cat A and in many cases not even B. The qualification is for Offshore, so not unreasonable that qualifying miles and exam should be achieved in a boat considered suitable for that use. No point in arguing that small boats have achieved ocean passages, but we are now in a world with formal categorisation.

 

[Tranona]

I am late to the fray and know nowt. Could someone tell me:

Do you now get the same ticket if you take the Yachtmeister practical test in the Med waters of Cap Ferrat as up the Walton Backwaters?

Yes, see post #119. No reason why they should be any different.

 

[awol]

There is a logic in that as a boat less than 7m LWL would not get Cat A and in many cases not even B. The qualification is for Offshore, so not unreasonable that qualifying miles and exam should be achieved in a boat considered suitable for that use. No point in arguing that small boats have achieved ocean passages, but we are now in a world with formal categorisation.

That might be true if the qualifying boat had indeed to be Cat A but the miles can be accumulated on all sorts of unseaworthy tupperware as long as it meets the length criterion.

 

[GrahamM376]

There is a logic in that as a boat less than 7m LWL would not get Cat A and in many cases not even B. The qualification is for Offshore, so not unreasonable that qualifying miles and exam should be achieved in a boat considered suitable for that use. No point in arguing that small boats have achieved ocean passages, but we are now in a world with formal categorisation.

Disagree with you here as in the UK we have no limits imposed by RCD category. I have more respect for the skills of those who do long short handed (often single handed) passages in smaller boats than those who do it in the luxury of a much larger more comfortable motion boat, mob handed. I see quite small old boats, Centaurs, Renowns etc arriving here after a good bashing across Biscay and the west coast and think the RYA are stupid to say those passages can't count towards YM mileage.

 

[doug748]

Yes, see post #119. No reason why they should be any different.

Then the latest fudge has no particular resonance, it brings the lesser qualification into line with the imperative. As many have pointed out above, it's a business decision.

Take you test in an easy automatic and get a ticket to drive with a tricky manual gearbox. (Bloody hell not another car metaphor).

Always fascinating to hear the PR departments in action though.