RYA - lost the plot?

[capnsensible]

Nobody seriously sees a YM as a ticket to skipper a 200Gt superyacht, )

No they dont. But it is necessary as a first step to getting into the industry. As anyone commercially qualified will tell you.

Which superyachts have you been on? Its great to hear genuine stories of those who have successfully progressed aboard these interesting vessels.

 

[capnsensible]

I would absolutely love to say to someone wow yes, you are right.

Sooo, Simondjuk, wow, yes you are right!!! IMHO. :encouragement :encouragement::encouragement:

 

[capnsensible]

I have truly gobbed off enough now so enjoy yourselves.

 

[laika]

That YM Offshore tickets can be easily bought is, I would hope, hyperbole

What point are you trying to make other than generic slander against the RYA?

Just because you think that just possibly the RYA examination system is not guaranteed to 100% free of normal human fallibility or shady behaviour, should the whole training scheme be shut down? Let's scrap car MOTs because some are dodgy and likewise the HGV driving scheme is obviously rubbish because of the same factors.

Either you're in the habit of punching people for saving your pint from being spilled or my excessively florid language use wrong footed you. In your own words, how do you believe that I was slandering the RYA?

Still waiting for an explanation of where I've slandered the RYA or suggested that the scheme (which I not only like and have previously said so but am also quite heavily invested in) is broken. In simple terms, in the context of dom's claim about his mate getting a YM ticket without a proper examination and captain sensible saying that this was impossible I was suggesting:
* I don't take the claim that YM tickets are easily obtained without examination seriously
* Some people in significant posts of public trust sometimes breach that trust, and I mean more public trust than YM examiners. People tell you things on night watch they probably shouldn't thinking it's amusing when actually it's shocking.
* Given the hundreds of YM examiners it is not inconceivable that one "bad egg" faked the paperwork for a friend, and possibly even didn't think they were doing anything wrong if they knew the "candidate" was a decent sailor. NO I am not suggesting that this is acceptable or a regular occurrence.

The summary was simply that dom could be correct without the system being "broken" per his apparent rhetoric in an earlier post. You gotta be so careful with wording here haven't you? And not use long words...

 

[Tranona]

When did a YM qualification get deemed "suitable for those who want it in order to take children out on boats?"
You make it sound like a paedophile charter.

Read the original post on this thread.

 

[dom]

I have truly gobbed off enough now so enjoy yourselves.

Sensible decision capn; it's not been your finest innings has it?

See you next thread :encouragement:

 

[capnsensible]

Sensible decision capn; it's not been your finest innings has it?

See you next thread :encouragement:

Simply relaxing to give others a chance.

So what superyacht have you been on?

When you took your YM exam, did you find that the system open to abuse? Did you give feedback to those responsible for the conduct of examinations at the RYA?

I am very happy to explain things to you again if you still dont understand.

 

[Blue Sunray]

No it isn't and no they aren't.

Ha Ha.

 

[Seajet]

Simply relaxing to give others a chance.

So what superyacht have you been on?

When you took your YM exam, did you find that the system open to abuse? Did you give feedback to those responsible for the conduct of examinations at the RYA?

I am very happy to explain things to you again if you still dont understand.

capnsensible,

I agree with what you've said :encouragement:

My chum, a truly ace sailor in the sense of seamanship not smartarse racing fripperies, had YM long ago; it got him a job skippering a superyacht mobo - long time ago, it does say ' up to 200 tons ' - well at least on mine - and dodgy German owner owned boat, but chum was well able for the challenge.

His career quickly progressed and suffice to say he has long been a Master Mariner with his own company - delivered more boats across the Atlantic than I've had hot dinners.

The original Yachtmaster Offshore - Ocean path worked, maybe it's vanity but I can't help feeling it degraded by ' Yachtmaster Coastal - I suppose though it's true to say aircraft pilots go through levels such as VFR - Visual Only - to IFR - instruments only in the dark rated - to CPR - Commercial Pilot Rating - the civil side's version of YM Ocean being Advanced ( before one gets to the vague possibility of Civil Test Pilots etc ).

I still think there's a big difference between someone genuinely capable of Yachtmaster Offshore, and one of Coastal Skipper, and the two should not be confused for commercial badge reasons.

 

[alant]

capnsensible,

I agree with what you've said :encouragement:

My chum, a truly ace sailor in the sense of seamanship not smartarse racing fripperies, had YM long ago; it got him a job skippering a superyacht mobo - long time ago, it does say ' up to 200 tons ' - well at least on mine - and dodgy German owner owned boat, but chum was well able for the challenge.

His career quickly progressed and suffice to say he has long been a Master Mariner with his own company - delivered more boats across the Atlantic than I've had hot dinners.

The original Yachtmaster Offshore - Ocean path worked, maybe it's vanity but I can't help feeling it degraded by ' Yachtmaster Coastal - I suppose though it's true to say aircraft pilots go through levels such as VFR - Visual Only - to IFR - instruments only in the dark rated - to CPR - Commercial Pilot Rating - the civil side's version of YM Ocean being Advanced ( before one gets to the vague possibility of Civil Test Pilots etc ).

I still think there's a big difference between someone genuinely capable of Yachtmaster Offshore, and one of Coastal Skipper, and the two should not be confused for commercial badge reasons.

Your right.
The Coastal Skipper has to worry about more bits of 'green' to bump into.

 

[Seajet]

Your right.
The Coastal Skipper has to worry about more bits of 'green' to bump into.

Please reconsider role of Yachtmaster Offshore and appostrophes.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

capnsensible,

I agree with what you've said :encouragement:

My chum, a truly ace sailor in the sense of seamanship not smartarse racing fripperies, had YM long ago; it got him a job skippering a superyacht mobo - long time ago, it does say ' up to 200 tons ' - well at least on mine - and dodgy German owner owned boat, but chum was well able for the challenge.

His career quickly progressed and suffice to say he has long been a Master Mariner with his own company - delivered more boats across the Atlantic than I've had hot dinners.

The original Yachtmaster Offshore - Ocean path worked, maybe it's vanity but I can't help feeling it degraded by ' Yachtmaster Coastal - I suppose though it's true to say aircraft pilots go through levels such as VFR - Visual Only - to IFR - instruments only in the dark rated - to CPR - Commercial Pilot Rating - the civil side's version of YM Ocean being Advanced ( before one gets to the vague possibility of Civil Test Pilots etc ).

I still think there's a big difference between someone genuinely capable of Yachtmaster Offshore, and one of Coastal Skipper, and the two should not be confused for commercial badge reasons.

You may or may not be aware, and not many are aware, that the Day Skipper can be turned into a commercial certificate as well. One assumes that employers are aware of the meanings behind the certificates and the relevance of the competency level for the commercial operation that they are being used for. I assume most employers are not being confused by a name.

A comment on the certificates. The day skipper and above certificates are now very difficult to forge and proof of identity is required to be issued to the RYA before they issue the certificate. The certificate now carries the picture of the holder and has various features which can be used to verify authenticity. The day of the A5 bit of paper that is signed off at the sea school are long gone. The commercial theatre that some of these certificates are used in falls under lots of regulations in both the EU and UK and the RYA have to be seen to manage the scheme in compliance with the various regulations that the MCA implements. If the RYA fails to say control the authenticity of the candidate who is subsequently awarded the certificate, they could loose their right to manage the scheme on behalf of the MCA. A lot has changed and is still changing, since the blue books and interviews with learned gentlemen.

Although the RYA implement a scheme, there is nothing to stop you and I from devising a scheme and requesting the MCA to approve it. I believe that there has been at least one other schemes that the MCA has recognised, but I cant remember the details, it may have been an American system adapted for the MCA requirements.

 

[capnsensible]

capnsensible,

I agree with what you've said :encouragement:

My chum, a truly ace sailor in the sense of seamanship not smartarse racing fripperies, had YM long ago; it got him a job skippering a superyacht mobo - long time ago, it does say ' up to 200 tons ' - well at least on mine - and dodgy German owner owned boat, but chum was well able for the challenge.

His career quickly progressed and suffice to say he has long been a Master Mariner with his own company - delivered more boats across the Atlantic than I've had hot dinners.

The original Yachtmaster Offshore - Ocean path worked, maybe it's vanity but I can't help feeling it degraded by ' Yachtmaster Coastal - I suppose though it's true to say aircraft pilots go through levels such as VFR - Visual Only - to IFR - instruments only in the dark rated - to CPR - Commercial Pilot Rating - the civil side's version of YM Ocean being Advanced ( before one gets to the vague possibility of Civil Test Pilots etc ).

I still think there's a big difference between someone genuinely capable of Yachtmaster Offshore, and one of Coastal Skipper, and the two should not be confused for commercial badge reasons.

Cheers!

I will try a bit of an explanation in strictly commercial terms and hopefully some may get how it rubs off to the liesure guys and gals.

Commercial vessels are required to meet manning standards. Lots to it which is covered in the Professional Practices and Responsibilities course that is now part of commercial endorsement.

OK, so looking just at the skipper who may do anything from a Day Trip boat in Devon to a Windfarm service boat driver to a 80 foot charter yacht in the Carib.

With a commercial endorsement. Day Sip. Up to twenty miles from a safe haven YM Coastal up to 60. YM Offshore up to 150. YM Ocean anywhere (hoorah for me).

This is just for perspective obviously. We all know you can buy a boat as big as you like and go wherever you like. Um except most places dont let you in unless you are insured.

In view of the numbers getting into the scheme (RYA publishes details) I personally have found the YM Coastal a useful stepping stone ror many of the few hundred candidates I have been involved with. But not all.

Thats my defence of the new title.... well 7 years now.

PS
Just looking at the qualifying mileage, 800 for Coastal, 2500 for Offshore so quite a big jump. Does allow the Coastal skipper to get out there and really learn. A lot of fast trak schools get the trainees to that level so they can go off on their own to find out how to really sail.

But its not for everyone.

Happy sailing!

 

[Tranona]

Were Yachtmaster^TM qualifications previously classified as "tidal" and "non-tidal"?

Don't get this obsession with "tidal" and "non tidal". Tides are only a small proportion of the syllabus. The world has changed since the 1970s when these qualifications came in. No longer is sailing about small(ish) slow boats creeping up estuaries or into drying harbours, or undertaking passages where tides are key to success. Boats are bigger, faster, tend not to go into areas where depth of water is critical etc.

Get the sense that some think just because they had to learn what were then difficult things, everybody has to learn them the same way - even if they will never need to use the knowledge. tides are no longer the mental challenge they used to be. I have an App with 37 ports tides and tidal curves on my Hudl. It only needs a basic knowledge of tides to use it.

So the RYA qualifications have moved with the times and addressing today's needs rather than those of the past.

Provided candidates have the basic knowledge of the principles covered in the syllabus they can surely develop the bits that are relevant to where and how they sail. equally anybody relying on the qualification for employing somebody will surely assess the individual on his capability rather than just taking a certificate at face value.

 

[alant]

Please reconsider role of Yachtmaster Offshore and appostrophes.

Ho, ho, ho, biggles.

 

[dom]

Simply relaxing to give others a chance.

So what superyacht have you been on?

Golly, phoenixed from a flounce!

It's impossible to answer that questions as boats are linked to people and it's not on to drag them into a discussion that has precisely nothing to do with them.. Then again you surely know that, or perhaps you don't. Why not stick to an area you know something about?

 

[oldbilbo]

It could be interesting to KNOW who, in this context, earn their living from 'knuckling their forehead' to the RYA's gurus.... those who may be wary of being 'disadvantaged' by expressing any form of contrary view, and not sticking firmly to the current 'party line'.

The RYA is a firmly commercial operation. It's a business which depends, for much of its activities, on a large group of enthusiasts who give their time and expertise free.... and pay for the privilege. Maintaining the fiction that it is a sort of benificent social enterprise is muchly in its economic interests. OK so far.

There's quite a history of 'pressure being brought to bear' on any sailing school/RYA Training Centre Principal who looked likely to think out of the box, or create ructions about dilution of standards. Many will remember the 'embarassment' when one Penny Haire - an RYA senior staff member - attended a symposium called by an RYA would-be competitor and - sitting outside the door of the meeting - recorded the names of all the sailing school principals and chief instructors who attended.

Yes, the competition was 'seen off'. Yes, there was a reason why those owners/operators of sailing schools turned up.... just once.

I happen to believe there's a lot good about the RYA operation. However, as in other fields, censorship and squashing of 'other voices' is, in the long term, bad for the brand. A truly healthy outfit should be able to take it on the chin, learn, and improve from that experience.

Oh, and BTW, I don't earn my crust from RYA endorsement.

 

[Seajet]

Don't get this obsession with "tidal" and "non tidal". Tides are only a small proportion of the syllabus. The world has changed since the 1970s when these qualifications came in. No longer is sailing about small(ish) slow boats creeping up estuaries or into drying harbours, or undertaking passages where tides are key to success. Boats are bigger, faster, tend not to go into areas where depth of water is critical etc.

Get the sense that some think just because they had to learn what were then difficult things, everybody has to learn them the same way - even if they will never need to use the knowledge. tides are no longer the mental challenge they used to be. I have an App with 37 ports tides and tidal curves on my Hudl. It only needs a basic knowledge of tides to use it.

So the RYA qualifications have moved with the times and addressing today's needs rather than those of the past.

Provided candidates have the basic knowledge of the principles covered in the syllabus they can surely develop the bits that are relevant to where and how they sail. equally anybody relying on the qualification for employing somebody will surely assess the individual on his capability rather than just taking a certificate at face value.

Tides - Primary and the ever embuggering Secondary ports - were a major part of my YM sylabus, and while they will always be a right pain I think this is correct.

Likewise the blind pilotage test, going by soundings, log and compass with the curtains closed and washboards in while yelling course to steer and buoys / marks to expect to the cockpit crew & examiner.

Please tell me they still do this, but of course it really does have to suit the area; spiffing between Lymington & Beaulieu, but doesn't really work on Hayling foreshore or one might end up on Selsey - after total electrical AND compass failure by the Solent forts in fog - with the option of remaining towed log, hand bearing compass and a spanner on a line as a lead-line, I bravely decided to get out of the normal channel and anchor to think about it !

 

[GrahamM376]

The system works quite well for those who need it to work.
The pro's need a baseline qualification system, as well as experience.
People like us (amateurs) don't really need it. So if doesn't entirely work for us, we can just leave it alone.

Doesn't quite work that way though. I had a commercial endorsement for many years but all that entailed at the time was a first aid certificate and a 5 year medical. Didn't give me any more sailing knowledge or skills, just allowed me to ferry people around for cash.

 

[Seajet]

It could be interesting to KNOW who, in this context, earn their living from 'knuckling their forehead' to the RYA's gurus.... those who may be wary of being 'disadvantaged' by expressing any form of contrary view, and not sticking firmly to the current 'party line'.

The RYA is a firmly commercial operation. It's a business which depends, for much of its activities, on a large group of enthusiasts who give their time and expertise free.... and pay for the privilege. Maintaining the fiction that it is a sort of benificent social enterprise is muchly in its economic interests. OK so far.

There's quite a history of 'pressure being brought to bear' on any sailing school/RYA Training Centre Principal who looked likely to think out of the box, or create ructions about dilution of standards. Many will remember the 'embarassment' when one Penny Haire - an RYA senior staff member - attended a symposium called by an RYA would-be competitor and - sitting outside the door of the meeting - recorded the names of all the sailing school principals and chief instructors who attended.

Yes, the competition was 'seen off'. Yes, there was a reason why those owners/operators of sailing schools turned up.... just once.

I happen to believe there's a lot good about the RYA operation. However, as in other fields, censorship and squashing of 'other voices' is, in the long term, bad for the brand. A truly healthy outfit should be able to take it on the chin, learn, and improve from that experience.

Oh, and BTW, I don't earn my crust from RYA endorsement.

OldBilbo,

there is no better example than the Studland Bay / f**kwit issue with the Seahorse Trust - all one of him - creating major ructions; I was one of the 4 founder members of BORG to counter this, and with Old Harry's VERY hard work it soon turned out the RYA had a very good legal team, who had done some very good works on behalf of yotties - they were vaguely aware of the threat by MCZ's and SHT etc, but it took BORG to give them something like a WE 177 up their arse to get them even involved !

Galadriel first spotted it

I first suggested a collective active approach

Squarebobsailpants ( Bob is abroad now to put it mildly ) did the computer bit

I did the shouting bit and suggested a collective approach by yotties

Old Harry made it happen and ended up doing HUGE amounts of legwork and research; I have seen but still find it incredible the amount of paperwork, bumph and research he undertakes while dealing with personal life problems - if ever there was a deserving case for a gong it is Jon / Old Harry, by a huge mile.

--

It took BORG, initially without any particular legal expertise but 4 savvy people, to kick the RYA into doing something.

When they did act they were fairly useful especially the very switched on legal department who were the only ones to see the MCZ thing coming - though no actions from those who could & should.

Now RYA look to BORG as they have better legal and technical advice.

I left BORG as I favoured a more shouty approach, feeling the need was urgent or we sailors of any kind would be denied Studland anchorage for a start, a place for ships and boats to shelter from the prevailing South Westerlies since time began, but then a bloke turned up who fancied having it all to himself...