RYA - lost the plot?

[dom]

I didn't have any problems ' managing ' the crew of the GibSea 42 I took my YM exam on...

Well yes, but then you did just walk off an aircraft carrier

 

[Lucky Duck]

and the Gib Sea will be have been painful slow compared with his usual boat - it will have been like everything was in slow motion,

 

[JumbleDuck]

Call me madcap but might the time to consider a certificate of competence for people sailing small boats be in the period between announcement and implementation of legislation requiring a certificate of competence for people sailing small boats?

Yup. That's when it would have to be done.

PS. You're madcap.

 

[JumbleDuck]

There is a logic in that as a boat less than 7m LWL would not get Cat A and in many cases not even B. The qualification is for Offshore, so not unreasonable that qualifying miles and exam should be achieved in a boat considered suitable for that use.

Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. Yachtmaster^TM is a qualification for people, not for boats, and it is simply absurd to say that competing in the Jester Challenge is a lesser experience of seamanship than taking a Bavaria across the channel and back a few times.

If offshore miles are desirable, stipulate offshore miles. Likewise, if experience of managing a crew is desirable, stipulate crewed trips.

I design assessment for (part of) my living, and this sort of let's-try-to-get-a-desirable-outcome-in-an indirect-way nonsense is a prime example of Things Not To Do.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The RYA possibly has its reasons for seeking to exclude boats under 10m. from assessment duties, and those under 7m. LWL from 'qualifying mileage', but those reasons might well be due to lobbying by sea school principals - i.e. money - and the conspicuous shortage of relevant sea experience among RYA senior staff.

The length requirement for the exam seems to have been imposed because someone wanted to take it in a Heard 24 (which is within the rules as laid down still on the RYA website) but the RYA couldn't find a local examiner who knew about gaffers so they invented a rule to exclude the boat.

There is a wealth of talent exercised by these owner/skippers in small but eminently seaworthy boats. For the RYA to continue to pretend that they, and their skippers, are somehow unworthy of acknowledgement takes me right back to my original 'OP' question.

Well said, that man.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Then again he was a lovely bloke, had taken part in every Fastnet possible and was linked to the Marines - his lovely wooden boat - named something like ' Sarai Maria ', a South African army song ? was at the disposal of the Marines, and last I heard is now with them full time.

This examiner chap had been on the WWII HMS Exeter, I think at the Battle Of The River Plate !

Sarie Marais - a Boer folksong and the quick march of the (current, British) Commandos. A good tune

I do hope for his sake his time on the Exeter was at the River Plate, not later on when she was sunk by the Japanese and the surviving crew had no better time than you would expect.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Suggestion: allow smaller boat accreditation, but only in selected yachting centres where a suitable youngster can be found to clamber around on top of the boat the boat (basically any racing sailor) as opposed to wising to brace himself in the cockpit somewhere? Just a suggestion and happy to be shot down

At the moment examination is not, I think, tied to centres, and tying it would bind the scheme even more firmly to the financial interests of sailing school owners. However, I can't see an issue in having a subset of examiners happy to test in smaller boats. Neither would I have any objection to restricting Yachtmaster^TMOffshore to bigger boats if Yachtmaster^TM Coastal was available to smaller ones as well..

It just seems a shame to exclude anybody with a boat under 30' long from using their expereince towards the qualifcations.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Im sorry that you still dont get this. Possibly an International Certificate of Competence, but what you claim is simply impossible.

Could you explain what checks are done to establish that an examiner who submits a report on a candidate has actually carried out the exam as claimed? I think your case would be strengthened if you could demonstrate the impossibility.

I had a French pilot's licence at one time. There are very strict requirements for classroom study, air time and examinations. I met none of them - well, I met the air time one, but not in France.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Anyway the minimum criteria for qualifying mileage is 7m LWL so the boats you mention comply.

The Westerly Centaur doesn't. LWL 6.50m.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Could you explain what checks are done to establish that an examiner who submits a report on a candidate has actually carried out the exam as claimed? I think your case would be strengthened if you could demonstrate the impossibility.

+1

 

[JumbleDuck]

Perhaps the RYA should visit some of the more remote (cheaper) areas where there are plenty of old small boats around.

'Zactly. It is a capital mistake to assume that everybody else does the same sort of sailing in the same sort of boats as oneself. I reckon that 50% of the resident boats on the moorings where I am based and in the adjacent marina would fail the 7m LWL rule. If you restrict it to boats which go away for significant periods then it's probably higher. That's not particularly surprising, of course, because those who want to sail the west coast of Scotland don't generally place a high priority on gracious marina living.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The reality is that the number of people undertaking offshore passages in boats less than 7m LWL is tiny - and the number who want to use such passages for the purposes of gaining a qualification even tinier.

If they do such passages, why shouldn't they use them? Anyway, the number of people doing offshore passages in bigger boats is pretty tiny too.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Are you suggesting that a 21' boat which can be manhandled around and easily single handed is the right craft to gain experience for a test (i.e. YM Offshore) which is partly about crew management and manoeuvring boats which displace 10s of tonnes or are you saying that there should be a separate exam for demonstrating high proficiency in sailing small boats?

If crew management is important, shouldn't single handed passages be excluded from qualifying miles? Does an exam taken in a modern lightweight AWB really demonstrate the competence needed to handle an 80 tonne commercial boat?

Which do you think requires more seamanship: a round-Britain voyage in a Corribee or a round-Britain voyage in a Bavaria 35?

 

[dom]

At the moment examination is not, I think, tied to centres, and tying it would bind the scheme even more firmly to the financial interests of sailing school owners. However, I can't see an issue in having a subset of examiners happy to test in smaller boats. Neither would I have any objection to restricting Yachtmaster^TMOffshore to bigger boats if Yachtmaster^TM Coastal was available to smaller ones as well..

It just seems a shame to exclude anybody with a boat under 30' long from using their expereince towards the qualifcations.

I think you're right and vaguely recall that it was more a question of the RYA struggling to get a suitable examiner to the candidate if his chosen boat happened to be somewhere off the beaten track.

However, the compromise you suggest certainly makes sense to me. It's got to be a good idea to make Yachtsmaster^TM () as inclusive as possible.

 

[Seajet]

I think the ' smaller boats are just as seaworthy ' argument was neatly summed up in the 1972 OSTAR.

This saw the largest ever entrant - the frankly ridiculous 246' Club Mediteranee sailed by Alain Colas, and the smallest ever, the 19' Hunter ' Willing Griffin ' sailed by David Blagden.

I reckon Blagden's achievment ( recorded in his rather sought after book ' Very Willing Griffin ' ) was far more worthwhile and realistic, and he was the one who was a boyhood hero of mine ( a real shame the way his own - not the book - story ended ) - I never thought about Club Med' again and still neither know nor care where she finished.

Of course Blagden had a secret weapon in his boat's designer...

Willing Griffin was not the lap of luxury - she didn't even have a freezer, washing machine or dishwasher - but I don't recall any worries from her skipper about making it.

 

[capnsensible]

Could you explain what checks are done to establish that an examiner who submits a report on a candidate has actually carried out the exam as claimed? I think your case would be strengthened if you could demonstrate the impossibility.

I had a French pilot's licence at one time. There are very strict requirements for classroom study, air time and examinations. I met none of them - well, I met the air time one, but not in France.

His claim is that an instructor gave out a 'YM ticket' with no test. Instructors do not give out YM certificates, the RYA department tasked with overseeing the YM exams do. His claim is therefore impossible'

 

[Seajet]

capnsensible,

my experience with yacht sailing schools is very limited; do they always get in an independent examiner then or do some have a suitable bod in-house ?

 

[dom]

His claim is that an instructor gave out a 'YM ticket' with no test. Instructors do not give out YM certificates, the RYA department tasked with overseeing the YM exams do. His claim is therefore impossible'

Utter nonsense. What I initially said was:

"Indeed, in some ways the fast-trackers are better than the individuals/schools who hand out YM Coastal and Offshore tickets on a 'no-test' basis. However, even this is not a problem as the YM certificate is not recognised anywhere in the way for example a Spanish heart surgeon's qualifications would be accepted by the NHS."
​

I subsequently clarified the word "hand-out" to exclude a strict and narrow bureaucratic interpretation, after which prv and others sharpened the question to what JD actually asked you:

"Could you explain what checks are done to establish that an examiner who submits a report on a candidate has actually carried out the exam as claimed? I think your case would be strengthened if you could demonstrate the impossibility."
​

Why not have another go?

 

[capnsensible]

capnsensible,

my experience with yacht sailing schools is very limited; do they always get in an independent examiner then or do some have a suitable bod in-house ?

I can tell you what we do and I understand its common practice.

There are a few examiners local to us and I book whoever is available on the date requested. That keeps the travel cost low for the candidate. Occasionally when a local guy isn't available, we contact the RYA Training department and then ring around to find someone. That is a PITA and can be pricey. Mind you, I have run prep weeks in Lanzarote and Antigua ( hard life) and that is real costalot.

I know another school that has high volume and several of their instructors are examiners too. However, the examiners cannot examine students they have taught.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Surely, examiners are the bastion of honesty, we even have a forumite bishop in waitng on here who is an exalted examiner. I'm certain he like the rest, wouldn't fiddle.

You couldn't afford me...!

As I understand it from examiners I know, they will not examine people they know for those exact reasons, Similarly, they dont re examine candidates they have failed previously. John Morris will have more insight on this having been one for twenty years.

The RYA continuously looks for holes and plugs them. DS and CS course completion certificates have your picture on them, number registered etc.

Its most certainly not Mickey Mouse.

I'm most certainly NOT permitted to examine candidates I know personally or have taught or who I have failed previously.

The length requirement for the exam seems to have been imposed because someone wanted to take it in a Heard 24 (which is within the rules as laid down still on the RYA website) but the RYA couldn't find a local examiner who knew about gaffers so they invented a rule to exclude the boat.



Well said, that man.

Complete rubbish. I know several examiners (including myself) who have sailed gaff rigged boats.

Could you explain what checks are done to establish that an examiner who submits a report on a candidate has actually carried out the exam as claimed? I think your case would be strengthened if you could demonstrate the impossibility.

I had a French pilot's licence at one time. There are very strict requirements for classroom study, air time and examinations. I met none of them - well, I met the air time one, but not in France.

More fool the French. The RYA employ an independent quality control company to interview candidates. Furthermore schools are liable to be spot checked. A determined fraudster might get past the system but the risks are diminishingly small IMHO.

The system might not be perfect but it's not open to the criticisms of some on here.