RYA - lost the plot?

An examiner cannot examine someone they have trained. Still, people can freely make their own minds up as to what they think goes on, thats life.
 
VO5 said:
It is not bollocks. It is a very serious topic.

And it is very serious because we are dealing with responsibility and capability, and, in case you don't already know, the sea can be a very cruel mistress.

Now tell us what you've got.

I have the ocean ticket, and thousands of miles under my belt, much of it single handed deep sea.

And here you are with 144 posts to your credit puffing your chest out to us.

Now tell us all about yourself, go on.
Click to expand...

A post is not a qualification it measures nothing useful of itself and is not related to chest size or sea miles covered.
I was a professional sea goer earning my living there or thereabouts for 34 years before dropping the pick.
 
laika said:
That YM Offshore tickets can be easily bought is, I would hope, hyperbole (and hence my earlier request for clarification) but presumably there are quite a few YM examiners. dom's subsequent reply suggests that the candidate was known to the examiner. Is it inconceivable that an individual did a "favour for a mate"?

I have been regaled with tales of what amounts to dereliction of duty in the case of friends and colleagues by people in positions of far more public trust than YM examiners. It's surely not inconceivable that there are one or two whose standards are less than scrupulous.
Click to expand...
What point are you trying to make other than generic slander against the RYA?

Just because you think that just possibly the RYA examination system is not guaranteed to 100% free of normal human fallibility or shady behaviour, should the whole training scheme be shut down? Let's scrap car MOTs because some are dodgy and likewise the HGV driving scheme is obviously rubbish because of the same factors.
 
When this came up a month or so ago on the Mobo forum I took this up with the RYA.

Message sent:

Sirs

I wish to voice my strong objection to removing the very basic requirement for boaters in the UK to have to understand the tide and its effects from the critical entry to boating at day skipper level.

All coastal waters in the UK experience the effect of tides, and whereas some prefer to sip champagne whilst learning to boat in warmer climates, the RYA is a British organisation surrounded by tidal waters, and the requirement for Day Skippers to understand the tides is a basic safety on the water necessity ...


This was the response received ...

Dear ...

Thank you for your email which has been forwarded on to me.

I am not sure where you have received your information but I am pleased to say it is not correct. The RYA has no intention of removing the need for tidal tuition from any courses. In fact, the opposite is true. Those training centres in area that do not have tidal waters in their general area will now be required to teach tides (at least in theory) from 1st of January 2017. RYA schools that are in areas currently designated tidal will continue teaching exactly what they have been delivering for decades.

The net effect is that the many thousands of people who went through “non – tidal” RYA schools completely oblivious to the fact that such a thing as tide existed will now learn at least the theory of tides and how to accommodate for them and calculate them.

I do hope this has cleared up any confusion. This is the information that has been provided both to RYA recognised training centres and to the yachting press.

Best wishes,

[TABLE="class: ox-f69cdde5e1-MsoNormalTable, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Richard Falk
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Training Manager and Chief Examiner
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Royal Yachting Association
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]



[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
His reply kind of sums it up.

When you change something most peoples first reaction is to get upset about it. 2nd reaction complain. Next come up with all sorts of reasons why it shouldn't have changed because the old way was much better.

This time every one is upset but nothing much has changed.
The YM is the same as it was last year. Even the DS hasn't changed.

The tide will come in and go out again. Your sand castles will get washed away. Despite King Canute and the RYA .:)
 
Pedant mode on;

a great many people get this wrong, the papers usually do; Canute never tried to stop the tide coming in, he proved he couldn't do it, to lackeys who said ' you can do anything my lord '. Said to have happened at Itchenor, one of his daughters is buried at nearby Bosham Church.

History lesson & pedant rant over. :)
 
To get your name on any certificate all you need is a good image of another one (in another name) and a child.

Unless the certificate is printed on unobtainuim, then it will cost more.
 
jonjo5 said:
What point are you trying to make other than generic slander against the RYA?
Click to expand...

Either you're in the habit of punching people for saving your pint from being spilled or my excessively florid langue use wrong footed you. In your own words, how do you believe that I was slandering the RYA?
 
The RYA have revamped their instructor revalidation process and are are being much stricter now and testing understanding of teaching styles and knowledge of syllabus. An acquaintance at a recent YM Instructor re-validation run via Cumbrae National Watersports Centre stated that the examiner ran it a lot more like a YM Exam than and revalidation. The RYA are also homogenising the syllabus of all their offshore sailing and motor boat courses so that common elements are identical. It appears that they are trying to make sure that old instructors, young fast track instructors and the cadre of part time instructors are up to scratch.

As far as removing the non tidal scheme, I think it is a good idea, if one cant understand tides and the simple calculations then it would be reasonable to assume that they are incapable of converting magnetic bearings to true, and working up an EP (using just leeway) in my humble opinion. It is hardly difficult arithmetic.

As far as young, fast track, yacht master instructors are concerned, the ones I have come across are skilled individuals who understand what they are doing and are far from dangerous. Of course in any pool of talent there will be a spread of competence at any time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
capnsensible said:
No I base my view on the fact that I have been fortunate enough to work many years part time and twenty years full time in a very narrow specialist field with a small population. I am constantly reminded by my trade association via reports updates and inspections about what goes on. The same as in many other industries.

Make of that what you will.

However, you specifically charged an instructor with handing out a yachtmaster offshore certificate. It cannot happen. An instructor does not have them. Now if someone has told you they do, you have, unfortunately, been lied to.
Click to expand...

Well there's a stroke of good fortune; Uricanejack has just told us (post #65) that he recalls warnings about YMs issued in South Africa? Why not take a look at your reports and tell us what went on there?

You know, whilst your unwavering confidence in the system is touching if a tad naive, it can become dangerous further up the food chain. Think of the financial world where a young whippersnapper might pluck up the courage to inform the Financial Conduct Authority that something dodgy is going on with the Libor fixes. Well thank goodness the FCA didn't take your line!

But sadly you could have pretty much written the script for the authorities' haughty dismissal of complaints levied against Jimmy Saville et al. The lesson here was evidence-based inquires must always, always take precedence over knee-jerk denials.

By good fortune this is utterly irrelevant in comparison, but if the RYA has uncovered hard evidence of wrongdoing in SA, is that something it is prepared to make public?
 
Last edited:
dom said:
Well there's a stroke of good fortune; Uricanejack has just told us (post #65) that he recalls warnings about YMs issued in South Africa? Why not take a look at your reports and tell us what went on there?

You know, whilst your unwavering confidence in the system is touching if a tad naive, it can become dangerous further up the food chain. Think of the financial world where a young whippersnapper might pluck up the courage to inform the Financial Conduct Authority that something dodgy is going on with the Libor fixes. Well thank goodness the FCA didn't take your line!

But sadly you could have pretty much written the script for the authorities' haughty dismissal of complaints levied against Jimmy Saville et al. The lesson here was evidence-based inquires must always, always take precedence over knee-jerk denials.

By good fortune this is utterly irrelevant in comparison, but if the RYA has uncovered hard evidence of wrongdoing in SA, is that something it is prepared to make public?
Click to expand...

Wasn't there something dodgy going on in Spain a while ago? From memory a school approving certs when they shouldn't have. And they got caught, so maybe the system is quite secure.
 
superheat6k said:
The net effect is that the many thousands of people who went through “non – tidal” RYA schools completely oblivious to the fact that such a thing as tide existed will now learn at least the theory of tides and how to accommodate for them and calculate them.
Click to expand...

And that that smattering of theory will be deemed enough for people who take YachtmasterTM exams in non-tidal waters, right?
 
GHA said:
Wasn't there something dodgy going on in Spain a while ago? From memory a school approving certs when they shouldn't have. And they got caught, so maybe the system is quite secure.
Click to expand...

I've no idea. That said, if what comes to pass is that the RYA gently polices this area, catches a few high profile cases of abuse, but that its limited resources prevent an investigation of every minor transgression, then that would seem perfectly fine to me.
 
JumbleDuck said:
And that that smattering of theory will be deemed enough for people who take YachtmasterTM exams in non-tidal waters, right?
Click to expand...

Really cannot see what your point is. This whole thread starts from somebody (who incidentally is now absent), getting it wrong in the first place.

The RYA has enhanced the syllabus by ensuring that all holders of the qualification are knowledgeable on tides. How on earth is this regarded as a retrograde step? a significant part of the boating world (much of it regularly used by UK boaters such as the Baltic and the Med) do not have meaningful tides. Does that make those who have gained their qualification there any less competent than those taking it in the UK?
 
dom said:
Well there's a stroke of good fortune; Uricanejack has just told us (post #65) that he recalls warnings about YMs issued in South Africa? Why not take a look at your reports and tell us what went on there?

You know, whilst your unwavering confidence in the system is touching if a tad naive, it can become dangerous further up the food chain. Think of the financial world where a young whippersnapper might pluck up the courage to inform the Financial Conduct Authority that something dodgy is going on with the Libor fixes. Well thank goodness the FCA didn't take your line!

But sadly you could have pretty much written the script for the authorities' haughty dismissal of complaints levied against Jimmy Saville et al. The lesson here was evidence-based inquires must always, always take precedence over knee-jerk denials.

By good fortune this is utterly irrelevant in comparison, but if the RYA has uncovered hard evidence of wrongdoing in SA, is that something it is prepared to make public?
Click to expand...

The wrongdoing was not the RYA but an outfit in SA masquerading as the RYA and issuing certificates that were fakes. Equally the Spanish one was simply fraud. In neither case were the certificates genuine RYA ones. It has already been confirmed here that certificates are only issued by the RYA, not by examiners or schools.

Pretty robust system from what I can see, but you can never stop "real" fraud if people are determined enough. As you know I spent half my life in an academic environment and one of my biggest challenges was dealing with fraudulent qualifications, particularly degree certificates and language qualifications. The more a qualification creates opportunities, the more valuable it is so the more likely it is that there will be fakes.
 
I dont understand why you would want a yachtmaster qual if you werent competent anyways.. You can still buy a yacht, learn to sail and then sail without a qualification...
 
nauticalnomad said:
I dont understand why you would want a yachtmaster qual if you werent competent anyways.. You can still buy a yacht, learn to sail and then sail without a qualification...
Click to expand...

Certain countries require bits of paper, boat rental firms also want them, insurance company discounts. I am sure that there are others. So fraud is happening and people are getting certificates without doing the full RYA thing.

No matter how hard a company tries there will always be somebody who wants the easy path to this sort of qualification.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top