RYA calls to end the compulsory carriage of flares on leisure craft.

[WoodyP]

In the wet dream of an RYA shiney-assed ignoramus office-worker who is easily startled by loud noises.

So you're not a fanboy

 

[Gary Fox]

Odd that strobe lights are not allowed but EPIRBS and PLBs have them.

Hh VHF's as well. Maybe the Rule just refers to lights attached to the vessel?

 

[WoodyP]

I must say that I have been very wary of setting off flares, as practiced on my sea survival course, especially after the dreadful injury sustained by l think Duncan Wells. They are expensive to buy and difficult to dispose of, but I won't be without them. My friend whose fishing boat sank under him off Brixham owes his life to the response from sailors nearby who spotted his flares way before the RNLI could get to him. They provided a very good medical check and taxi service back to the harbour, but didn't pull him out.
Do we all subscribe to RNLI? I know that some think they have lost their status because of the antics of head office, but the rescue crews are a wonderful comfort to know that they are there.

 

[zoidberg]

Rule 36. No strobes.

I do know about Rule 36.

There's another Rule, near the front, which covers it. I decided I'd argue the case when back on dry land.....

 

[Gary Fox]

I decided I'd argue the case when back on dry land.....

Absolutely, and I bet there are plenty of yachts with stroby type things tucked away for emergencies...
I doubt those Mickey-Mouse emergency LED winky-twinklers comply with the Rule either, but they seem to be selling like hot cakes.

 

[nortada]

My greatest fear of flares is safety. Reliable yes, safe no.

In a previous life, I demonstrated and let off hundreds of flares and supervised others gaining experience with flares. Even in controlled situations it could be hairy so we employed the same procedures for live firing exercises.

On a small vessel in emergency at night, in the hands of a frightened novice, anything but safe and virtually all sailors have never fired a flare and those who have it was a limited experience buried in a course, back beyond. If you are going to use flares, regular continuation training is essential.

Possibly, I have the dubious privilege of having had a flare fired at me when airborne.

It bounced off the rotors but was very thought provoking. Bit like being under AAA fire.

Fresh underpants all round

 

[TernVI]

I can see no argument for flares within radio range of the shore; there are so many other ways of calling for help. ...

But there are many miles of UK coastline where there is no coverage close to the shore.
Once you are hidden by a small headland, your VHF and phone coverage gets patchy.
Close to shore is quite likely where flares are most useful?
Because they alert anyone, not just the passing seafarer who probablly should have a DSC VHF to receive your mayday.

I'm ambivalent about the whole thing, but if the RYA wanted to do something about removing the compulsion for flares, they could have made a better start by talking to people within their own organisation.

Nobody has actually answered any of the questions I raised in my first post, so I assume nobody knows?

 

[dunedin]

Unfortunately the RYA is no longer a members association, in chasing the money for Olympic classes the Government made it obligatory for government employees (all national bodies) to have control of ( BIG say) on the board.

What nonsense. It is a members association, which if you are a member you would know.
Olympic classes are not funded from membership fees but from the Uk Sports funding.
Please name the “government employees” on the RYA Board

 

[LittleSister]

I would liove to now if anyone has actually used a white flare. It seems to me that if you need to use a white flare the colregs probably that your duty to avoid a collision has replaced your requirement to stand on. if you put up a white flare and the ship hits you, you probably don't have a leg to stand on. I have to say that I have been tempted to use them when it is clear that ships are either ignoring there responsibility or not keeping watch, but never have.

I had an engine failure on a trip back from France, but it hadn't particularly concerned me, we just continued under sail, until at night the wind fell very light and we were hardly moving and barely had enough way on to maintain anything like our heading. We just settled down to wait for the wind to pick up. We were fairly well inshore, and most shipping was well out to sea and trudging up or down the English Channel.

We had, though, seen a ship approaching from far away up the coast behind us. It was clearly showing a steaming light and the port red, so it seemed clear that it would pass to seaward of us. We kept watching, for maybe 20-or 30 minutes, more frequently than usual mainly because it was carrying some additional lights that we couldn't work out at a distance. As it got nearer we eventually saw it was showing towing lights, and the tow was also lit. When it was got close its course suddenly changed so it was now showing both port and starboard lights - it was heading straight for us! (We weren't moving any where near fast enough to make any difference to our view of it.)

Suddenly highly stressed, I got the crew on deck and told her to put her lifejacket on, got my 'big' torch (though not anywhere near as powerful as more recent LED torches) and started shining it alternatively flashing at its bridge and on up to illuminate our sails. I managed to turn the yacht, mainly by using the rudder as an 'oar', so that we were at right angles and moving (to the limited extent we were moving at all) shorewards and presenting the biggest possible visual target).

As the ship bore down on us we prepared to jump ship, the starboard light disappeared behind the bow, and the ship and its tow slid past less than 100m away.

I still don't know whether it had seen us, and whether it altered course to miss us. But I did realise that in my near panic I had completely forgotten the existence my 'steamer scarer' white flare - I'd carried one for years but never used one except on bonfire night. I think it would have had a much better chance of alerting someone who may have been on the bridge but looking elsewhere.

Got called out last year to a yacht whose flares worked ok, despite having expired in 1983!
I pointed out to the skipper that his flares were older than most of the lifeboat crew who had come to assist him.

I have let off flares and smokes, about 5 years ago, that dated back to 1989. Every single one worked, but some of the reds were pale - more pink - and I didn't time them to see if they lasted the full specified time.

I think letting off hand flares when the expire is good experience (I always wear goggles, leather gloves, and a heavy coat and leggings, just in case), and both gives me more confidence in using them, and means that I have only to dispose of my parachute flares (which in this area would risk coming down, still burning, on houses, roads or woods).

 

[dunedin]

If your boat is full of water to the extent that you've lost all your electrics, you're out of range of a handheld VHF, and your mobile phone is either out of range or waterlogged...... What are your options?

Haven't got an EPIRB or PLB?

Then you'd better hope that someone spots your flares.

So perhaps EPIRP or PLB should be mandatory for the boats in question (coded craft and over 13 metres) - indeed I suspect the EPIRB might be.
I think the RYA‘s point is purely that flares should not be MANDATORY for any Leisure craft. This does not stop anybody carrying pyrotechnics if they choose to.
But it is madness to suggest boat owners must carry flares just because they might not have other more modern distress signals. One could equally argue that anybody who has flares but does not have at least one PLB/EPIRB, and AIS devices in all lifejackets, is being negligent.

Coincidentally I was just reading an old Yachting Monthly from around 1995 - when the editor was noting that his readers were writing complaining about this new fangled GPS stuff, and how it was dangerous to go to sea without an astrolobe or similar. Old people are ever resistant to change

 

[nortada]

So perhaps EPIRP or PLB should be mandatory for the boats in question (coded craft and over 13 metres) - indeed I suspect the EPIRB might be.
I think the RYA‘s point is purely that flares should not be MANDATORY for any Leisure craft. This does not stop anybody carrying pyrotechnics if they choose to.
But it is madness to suggest boat owners must carry flares just because they might not have other more modern distress signals. One could equally argue that anybody who has flares but does not have at least one PLB/EPIRB, and AIS devices in all lifejackets, is being negligent.

Coincidentally I was just reading an old Yachting Monthly from around 1995 - when the editor was noting that his readers were writing complaining about this new fangled GPS stuff, and how it was dangerous to go to sea without an astrolobe or similar. Old people are ever resistant to change

The fear about GPS was that it could orchestrate collisions.

Should say, I never bought into this theory.

 

[Rappey]

An article by the rnli stated a figure of over 70% of distress calls were made by mobile phone...
Ive never seen a flare that is a genuine distress call, seen plenty in the sky that are hoaxes.
I would chose the red button on a dsc radio before chosing a flare.
If im out further then i would have an epirb onboard.
The relevance of all of this may change again as starlinks coverage grows and the EU and the UK(maybe) add a similar system.. Internet anywhere on the planet sounds good to me, your vessel could be sending out a mayday before you even thought to do it..

 

[Rappey]

But there are many miles of UK coastline where there is no coverage close to the shore.
Once you are hidden by a small headland, your VHF and phone coverage gets patchy.

Satellite ! You cant hide your ais in a patchy areas anymore as satellite sees you.

 

[TernVI]

Satellite ! You cant hide your ais in a patchy areas anymore as satellite sees you.

Fair comment.
But is satellite AIS monitoring an approved GMDSS alerting route?
What is the actual coverage of satellite monitoring of AIS?
How long might it take to raise an alarm?
Is satellite AIS reception robust in all weathers?

What about redundancy if the mast and AIS aerial go over the side?

I spend a fair bit of time on boats like RIBs with no AIS.
Then again I spend a lot of time on boats like Lasers with no flares either.

 

[zoidberg]

An article by the rnli stated a figure of over 70% of distress calls were made by mobile phone...

I was told today by someone 'quite significant' in the HM Coastguard operations world that of the 600+ 406MhZ EPIRB alerts he's had to deal with, only 5 were valid emergencies.

No, this is exactly 'as reported'.....

 

[Rappey]

But is satellite AIS monitoring an approved GMDSS alerting route?

Ive not read into exactly what and how but look on marine traffic, ais boats all over the oceans, you can see where the vessels are, but without subscription you cant identify other than tanker, fishing, pleasure yacht etc.. so would like to assume that any sos detected by satellite would be picked up in the same way a mobile with no credit can still make a 999 call

 

[TernVI]

I was told today by someone 'quite significant' in the HM Coastguard operations world that of the 600+ 406MhZ EPIRB alerts he's had to deal with, only 5 were valid emergencies.

No, this is exactly 'as reported'.....

But for the vast majority of yachts wanting the RNLI, an EPIRB is a piss poor alerting method.
It's relatively slow, a concept intended for far offshore kind of incidents with near zero overlap with flares being useful.
EPIRBs, like a lot of marine safety stuff are shaped by a very long legacy. Even DSC is a seriously olde-worlde way of doing things.
If someone had been given a clean sheet of paper to design an alerting system in the past 10 years, we'd have something quite different.

 

[TernVI]

Ive not read into exactly what and how but look on marine traffic, ais boats all over the oceans, you can see where the vessels are, but without subscription you cant identify other than tanker, fishing, pleasure yacht etc.. so would like to assume that any sos detected by satellite would be picked up ?

Marine traffic also tends to have amusing numbers of boats missing. Even big ships. I know the website presented to plebs who don't pay is not the full shilling, but I don't think their paid service has anything like 100% global coverage????? I could be wrong, I'm asking, a few years since I was paid to care about marinetraffic and the like.
And if they pick up a mayday from the arse end of nowhere, who checks it's not a false alarm?
Again, I admit to being rusty on AIS distress protocol.

 

[Rappey]

Marine traffic also tends to have amusing numbers of boats missing.

Im not at all suggesting marine traffic does anything usefull other than to show where various boats have been up to 24 hrs ago and yes , its often out of date.. I was just using it as a way of suggesting satellite appears to be following vessels that have ais so i would presume its possible for someone somewhere to detect a dsc emergency..
A quick look at the pacific would indicate you cant get more than 500 miles away from any boats as they are absolutely everywhere.. And probably many more without ais

 

[john0740]

Where I live I've seen quite a lot of parachute flares used for training. I've noticed that parachute flares always seem to catch the eye, even when focussed elsewhere and even in bright daylight.

I've also seen parachute flares used for illuminating the sea to search for people in the water but I'm not sure whether these are 'standard' parachute flares or a device optimised for search illumination.