running engines with wastegates stuck CLOSED, dangers?

[vas]

another one for LS1

continuing the stuck turbo, wrong installation, et al saga, it seems that I'm facing a bill of 2X600 euro for two watercooled wastegates for my IVECO engines. That would be possible up to a month ago, but simply impossible with the capital controls we are facing here as no one has them in stock it will be two months at best if and when the local dealer can order them from Italy or wherever and I simply cannot buy them direct from abroad as our credit cards are banned for the time, although I could get a mate to order them and pay him later little by little If I'd get some reasonable priced s/h or new ones...

Since MiToS is almost sea worthy (OK, I'll try to update the main thread tonight if the Greek parliament discussion on the new deal turns boring which I doubt...), I'm trying to set a date for launch.
Both exhaust manifolds (where the wastegates mount - they are not part of the turbo assembly) have the wastegate valves solidly stuck to the cast iron, nicely sealing and keeping all boost the turbos will provide in the engine, hence wont vent out any overboost.

Question then is:

Assuming I'm careful with the go fast levers and I get her carefully on the plane with my eyes stuck on the turbo gauges, am I OK for the season?
Mind most of my travelling will be (for again the obvious capital controls reasons) at displacement speed.
Judging from my petrol fast car turbo tuning past, I can feel and drive off boost or with reasonable boost easily, not sure how easy it will be on the boat though. For sure I wont try any WOT runs and will avoid hard pushing the engines.

Removing the exhaust manifolds and machining a new seal for the new wastegates can be done with minimum disruption during the winter.

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

I think you need to drive only slowly with stuck-closed wastegates, as you will be just guessing the point at which there will be overboost. Gut feel says 50% load will be fine but that is guesswork (remember it is mass flow rate not rpm that drives the turbo, so load is more important than rpm)
I'm happy to buy the things for you if helps

 

[scubaman]

On my Volvo's there is originally a rigid (copper?) pipe delivering the control pressure to the wastegate. The pipe was broken on the stb engine which of course meant that the wastegate didn't open at all. I only found this out when I tested WOT at the beginning of the season and saw a boost pressure -error code on the EDC panel.

The fact that the error code only appeared on the last 10% of the rev range led me to think that no harm would be done while driving well below that (ie. around 70% of the max revs).

 

[Latestarter1]

Hi Vas,

Can you give me Iveco part #'s for the Buttzi valves, let me at least price up in UK from my dealer.

JFM is correct mainly load related. One safety net would be to fit EGT gauges. I do have some nice ones (ex test) so not expensive coming from the U.S should you require.

Pretty unwell at the moment however spell in hospital should sort the issue out however if I am off line for periods so please be patient.

 

[vas]

I think you need to drive only slowly with stuck-closed wastegates, as you will be just guessing the point at which there will be overboost. Gut feel says 50% load will be fine but that is guesswork (remember it is mass flow rate not rpm that drives the turbo, so load is more important than rpm)
I'm happy to buy the things for you if helps

John,

I do have boost gauges installed, so I can check that boost is at bay and tbh not planning on doing silly things until I gain confidence with my engines and overall setup of the whole rebuilt. So displacement speed cruising with a bit of low speed planning should keep me way lower than 70%. Yep, I understand the MAF logic to it, hence wanting to do things smoothly and not push it.
Thanks for your kind offer, but if I can make it (and looks like I can) for this season as is, I'd prefer it like that as I'm not extremely sure WHEN I'll be able to pay that back to you unless we stick to the euro and capital control eases out which could be next year...

On my Volvo's there is originally a rigid (copper?) pipe delivering the control pressure to the wastegate. The pipe was broken on the stb engine which of course meant that the wastegate didn't open at all. I only found this out when I tested WOT at the beginning of the season and saw a boost pressure -error code on the EDC panel.

The fact that the error code only appeared on the last 10% of the rev range led me to think that no harm would be done while driving well below that (ie. around 70% of the max revs).

thanks, supports my argument!

Hi Vas,

Can you give me Iveco part #'s for the Buttzi valves, let me at least price up in UK from my dealer.

JFM is correct mainly load related. One safety net would be to fit EGT gauges. I do have some nice ones (ex test) so not expensive coming from the U.S should you require.

Pretty unwell at the moment however spell in hospital should sort the issue out however if I am off line for periods so please be patient.

Paul, sorry to hear that, hope you have a quick recovery!

cleaned, sanded and managed to read the numbers on the body of the wastegate. Then looked around a bit and it looks like the part number we're after is:

8005484

looks like the following number (also engraved on the body of the wastegate) is a reference to the turbo (may be wrong on that)
5806-110-1150
Turbo I was told is a KKK K26 (but I understand there's a zillion of different models for Ferarris, Porsches, marinised BMW, Audi S2s, you name it...)

Just as a reminder all that's fitted on a
IVECO-AIFO

8061SRM33
serial # 260730


Regarding EGT, we've discussed that before, I fully agree but I couldn't find matching gauges from the VDO range, and I'm badly running out of space to fit them. Ideally I'd like to install (if reasonably priced that is!) NMEA2K EGT sensors and hook them to the gauges at the helm. However just in case, I'd appreciate a pic and hole size for the ones you suggest.

cheers

V.

 

[Latestarter1]

Vas,

Running the part numbers will get back to you.

Take a look at http://www.designatedengineer.com/Xhaust.html same pattern as the ones this guy has for sale 3 inch dual engine EGT gauges but from a different manufacturer.

Not a cheaper option, however wish I had the time to look at the KKK turbo map and find a substitute Holset H1E with internal wastegate less expensive in the longer term.

Good luck

 

[jfm]

Vas, you probably already know this but if you want to use n2k then the nicest gizmo is maretron's http://www.maretron.com/products/tmp100.php. The EGT probes are revealed if you click the "accessories" tab and they require 1/8th NPT hole in the manifold. Alas, nothing from Maretron is cheap, as you know.

If it helps I'm still happy to buy the wastegates and wait indefinitely for payment. Hey, a little exposure to Greece will bring a frisson to my otherwise quiet day! It would be nothing alongside the joy of seeing MiToS launched. So if you have time to install the new wastegates and want them now, feel free to send me details of a UK source. I guess you could have them in 2 weeks (?)

Latestarter, best wishes for fast recovery. In a Vee engine, would you normally prefer to fit an EGT probe to each exhaust manifold, or just one for the whole engine? I'm thinking that fitting 2 might, in some scenarios, help diagnose an engine problem. Eg if you have a combustion problem it will tell you which bank of cylinders contains the problem child. For general monitoring and tuning, one probe is fine I suppose

 

[Firefly625]

If it helps I'm still happy to buy the wastegates and wait indefinitely for payment. Hey, a little exposure to Greece will bring a frisson to my otherwise quiet day! It would be nothing alongside the joy of seeing MiToS launched. So if you have time to install the new wastegates and want them now, feel free to send me details of a UK source. I guess you could have them in 2 weeks (?)..

what a lovely offer jfm,

what a great forum.

 

[henryf]

what a lovely offer jfm,

what a great forum.

Would that offer stand for a Princess 72?




What a nightmare for you in Greece at the moment. Just booked some flights out of Athens with Aegean Air for October and made sure to do it on the credit card...

I hope everything sorts it's self out. If only you could persuade people to pay all their taxes for a couple of years you'd be there.


Henry

 

[kashurst]

You have probably thought of this already, but is it worth putting the wastegates in a bucket of rust remover (not rust converter) that would dissolve the rust and carp and possibly free off the valves for disassembly etc?

 

[MapisM]

If it helps I'm still happy to buy the wastegates and wait indefinitely for payment. Hey, a little exposure to Greece will bring a frisson to my otherwise quiet day! It would be nothing alongside the joy of seeing MiToS launched. So if you have time to install the new wastegates and want them now, feel free to send me details of a UK source. I guess you could have them in 2 weeks (?)

Considering that we're talking of Iveco parts, and that the EUR just got weaker vs. the GBP, I'd expect them to be a bit cheaper around here, ATM.
And I'd be more than happy to syndicate your financing offer, so to speak.
Heck, after all, if the worse comes to worst, I guess we might still count on an invitation from Vas to join him for a bit of cruising in some Aegean island.
Who in his right mind could consider the German Bunds a better investment, I wonder...?

PS for henryf: dunno about jfm, but my offer doesn't stand for the P72, sorry!

 

[henryf]

PS for henryf: dunno about jfm, but my offer doesn't stand for the P72, sorry!

Ah well, worth the question.

God loves a trier


H.

 

[jfm]

Haha yes MapisM, my "investment analysis" was the same as yours: if the currency controls prevent Vas paying for the wastegates we can just claim a free day's sailing on MiToS. I'd be delighted to syndicate that opportunity with you! :encouragement::encouragement:

Princess 72 typically has C32 doesn't it? No, I don't fancy buying a set of 4x wastegates for those. I'm more familiar with the price of parts for those engines than I want to be!

Ref FX, I just bought a bunch of euros this morning using GBP, not enough to get me the trading desk rate but enough to be out of consumer rates, and got a real 1.435 effective net-of-everything rate

 

[MapisM]

Princess 72 typically has C32 doesn't it? No, I don't fancy buying a set of 4x wastegates for those.

LOL, why do I have a funny feeling that henryf was more interested in the whole thing, rather than just some Cat parts?

 

[Latestarter1]

Vas,

Peculiar situation with your engines IVECO truck dealer can get parts up on the screen but no pricing or availability, so we using FPT marine dealer to quote the IVECO truck dealer.

 

[Latestarter1]

Latestarter, best wishes for fast recovery. In a Vee engine, would you normally prefer to fit an EGT probe to each exhaust manifold, or just one for the whole engine? I'm thinking that fitting 2 might, in some scenarios, help diagnose an engine problem. Eg if you have a combustion problem it will tell you which bank of cylinders contains the problem child. For general monitoring and tuning, one probe is fine I suppose

JFM Normal to monitor both banks on Vee engines however nothing wrong with your plan.

 

[henryf]

LOL, why do I have a funny feeling that henryf was more interested in the whole thing, rather than just some Cat parts?

Yep




Henry.

 

[vas]

Vas,

Running the part numbers will get back to you.

Take a look at http://www.designatedengineer.com/Xhaust.html same pattern as the ones this guy has for sale 3 inch dual engine EGT gauges but from a different manufacturer.

Not a cheaper option, however wish I had the time to look at the KKK turbo map and find a substitute Holset H1E with internal wastegate less expensive in the longer term.

Good luck

Thanks Paul,

spacewise I'm better off with a maretron n2k set for my engines (although that would set me back around the cost of the one wastegate!).
Wondering WHY IVECO went the external wastegate route ON the exhaust manifold getting all the heat and on a badly designed exhaust some salt spray in it... A typical internal wastegate that costs 100euro and never (almost!) fails looks like a better option

Vas, you probably already know this but if you want to use n2k then the nicest gizmo is maretron's http://www.maretron.com/products/tmp100.php. The EGT probes are revealed if you click the "accessories" tab and they require 1/8th NPT hole in the manifold. Alas, nothing from Maretron is cheap, as you know.

If it helps I'm still happy to buy the wastegates and wait indefinitely for payment. Hey, a little exposure to Greece will bring a frisson to my otherwise quiet day! It would be nothing alongside the joy of seeing MiToS launched. So if you have time to install the new wastegates and want them now, feel free to send me details of a UK source. I guess you could have them in 2 weeks (?)

John, many thanks for your generous offer, I'll have tosay no to this offer as I really need to try and keep costs at bay as things are not at all certain for the next year or so, so better to run slow (wont have the means to go WOT tbh...) and take my time during the winter removing the manifolds and doinga proper fit of the wastegates. May take this offer up in Jan-Feb if capital controls are still on.

What a nightmare for you in Greece at the moment. Just booked some flights out of Athens with Aegean Air for October and made sure to do it on the credit card...

Henry

true, not the best of situations and I'm glad I didn't happen to be somewhere in Europe on business as I'd be fully stuck with credit cards that don't work and no money in my pocket

You have probably thought of this already, but is it worth putting the wastegates in a bucket of rust remover (not rust converter) that would dissolve the rust and carp and possibly free off the valves for disassembly etc?

and to explain why I keep on mentioning removing the exhaust manifold, it's due to the fact that the valve bit of the wastegate sealing the boost is currently solidly attached to the cast iron of the manifold. Just to give you an idea, took me 1h excavating rust just to clean 10mm or so and reach the actual valve head. So yes, wastegate is kaput as valve is not attached to the body of the wastegate atm and fitting a new one means manifold and valve on the machineshop to match valve size and seal, lap them together and then refit on the engine. Probably a couple of days worth of work plus removing all coolant and various other bits on the stbrd engine as well.

Considering that we're talking of Iveco parts, and that the EUR just got weaker vs. the GBP, I'd expect them to be a bit cheaper around here, ATM.
And I'd be more than happy to syndicate your financing offer, so to speak.
Heck, after all, if the worse comes to worst, I guess we might still count on an invitation from Vas to join him for a bit of cruising in some Aegean island.
Who in his right mind could consider the German Bunds a better investment, I wonder...?

gents form and orderly queue please
You are invited here anyway, no need to buy me or loan me bits of metal for that
Thanks P. as I explained I'm drawing the line somewhere here, unless something v.cheap turns up, I'll keep on looking and get it for a winter fit.

Vas,

Peculiar situation with your engines IVECO truck dealer can get parts up on the screen but no pricing or availability, so we using FPT marine dealer to quote the IVECO truck dealer.

Paul, from my limited studying, seems that most smaller IVECO trucks are on different manifolds and internally gated turbos, and there is a cheap aircooled identical wastegate used on some mercs and porsches. Looks like the watercooled version was only used on generators and marine engines (but I maybe wrong)

Appreciate anything you'll find and even a confirmation that the aircooled one will actually fit as that could be an option.

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

gents form and orderly queue please
You are invited here anyway, no need to buy me or loan me bits of metal for that
Thanks P. as I explained I'm drawing the line somewhere here, unless something v.cheap turns up, I'll keep on looking and get it for a winter fit.

Understood V, and needless to say you'd be more than welcome here too - anytime!

Btw, in hindsight, I suppose that my previous comment could have sounded a bit offensive, from the standpoint of someone who is living the current Greek situation first hand.
If so, I apologize, that definitely wasn't my intention.
And I sincerely hope that such situation will soon improve, though most of the news that I read lately can hardly make anyone very optimistic.
One of the last Italian true statesmen (De Gasperi) used to say that the difference between a politician and a statesman is that the first is concerned about the next election, while the latter is concerned about the next generation.
Sadly, I can only see politicians talking - anywhere in Europe - but no statesmen...

 

[Latestarter1]

Vas,

Re your question on Buzzi was very involved with design of your engines and had a 'thing' about waste-gate turbochargers.

I suspect the 'thing' is way that the design of internal turbo waste gates dump air across the the exhaust stream when they open potentially screwing up exhaust flow.

Spoke to a Holset engineer about the concept and he described it as a somewhat elegant augment not borne out in practice. However the same engineer said from a cynical perspective KKK did not have suitable WG turbo on the shelf and IVECO would not fund one due low volume marine application.

Good luck