Rules of the road...stand on vessel?

Leighb

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That is certainly much more informative, I agree that the "threat" graphic is somewhat OTT, perhaps simply flashing would be better?
 

rptb1

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Maybe if people were a little more "pedantic" about the ColRegs and a little less "you understood what I meant" then everyone's life would be a little less fraught.

Absolutely.

The IRPCS is a remarkably clear, consistent, and simple document. One of the best that I know. It's about as simple as it can be. People summarising it, or simplifying it in their heads, are creating danger of collision.

I think it's a natural thing for people to study examples and then internalize rules from them. Natural and dangerous.

Read -> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea
 

prv

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People summarising it, or simplifying it in their heads, are creating danger of collision.

Summarising or simplifying isn't the main problem. There might be some edge cases where a simplification would lead to the wrong action, but they're few and far between in practice.

The two main reasons for people to disregard the Colregs are 1) ignorance of the rules in the first place, or 2) their own private set of rules which they consider superior, including considerations such as "he's working" or "ooh, it's awf'y big".


I assume that's a faithful copy, but I prefer to go to the source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/281965/msn1781.pdf

Pete
 

jac

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The two main reasons for people to disregard the Colregs are 1) ignorance of the rules in the first place, or 2) their own private set of rules which they consider superior, including considerations such as "he's working" or "ooh, it's awf'y big".

Pete

I can understand how 1) arises
I struggle with how 2) can arise. - Maybe through arrogance and people on the autistic spectrum who think most rules don't apply to the

I can understand courtesy - for example Port Starboard situation where Port tacker is running with Spinnaker and Starboard tack to avoid - or even self preservation where people stay in shallow water to avoid big ships but just can't place the logic where someone knows the rules but ignores them because "he's big" or "he's working"
 

rptb1

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… people on the autistic spectrum who think most rules don't apply to them …

We're all on the autistic spectrum. That's why it's called a spectrum.

My experience of people with autistic spectrum disorders is that they're more interested in rules and systems and conforming with them, not less.
 
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Birdseye

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Can you explain the words “only to see“?

I presume this means Portsmouth harbour entrance, in which case you would've been able to see the yacht from quite a distance. This would imply that either the ferry wasn't keeping an adequate lookout, or wasn't proceeding at a safe speed. Or perhaps the master was exaggerating because he was angry.

Or did the yacht make a sudden unexpected course change out of the small boat channel?

Your story doesn't really give enough information to apply IRPCS.

Which rule(s) are you quoting there?

Its a reference to me coming to the bridge "only to see". What the bridge crew had seen and for how long I do not know. Nor do I know where that yacht appeared from. But what I was illustrating by this 8 year old event was that for all the common sense approach there might be to this sort of situation, you can still have a problem with a sodding great ferry coming up behind a careless yottie in the middle of a very narrow channel. The ferry simply couldnt have stopped even from his slow speed in the distance involved and there was nowehere for him to go either right or left..

I know what the recommendations are, they have been discussed at length in various threads here, but VHF calls are not explicitly proscribed and sometimes they can be appropriate, asking for and giving intentions can only assist in some cases.

Some cases? There always are exceptions to any rule, but I can just imagine a large ship going into a congested area of a sunny summer weekend when its full of boat owners excited about their fancy electronics, wanting to show off their nautical/ technical skills to wife / girfriend / kids. 30 boats all trying to talk to the phillipino radio operator. Recipe for confusion
 

prv

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There always are exceptions to any rule, but I can just imagine a large ship going into a congested area of a sunny summer weekend when its full of boat owners excited about their fancy electronics, wanting to show off their nautical/ technical skills to wife / girfriend / kids. 30 boats all trying to talk to the phillipino radio operator. Recipe for confusion

That scenario sounds more like the exception than the rule.

Pete
 

Pye_End

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I can understand how 1) arises
I struggle with how 2) can arise. - Maybe through arrogance and people on the autistic spectrum who think most rules don't apply to the

Quite often need to take some care with this 'big boat - small boat' issue, or the 'working v's pleasure' - have met a few (usually smaller) profesional, working vessels who also seem to subscribe to this. Nearly got run over by a smallish tug off Maplin a couple of years ago - skipper seated at the helm and would not budge from his course. Assuming he would alter course, I was hard on the wind and would have had to tack to get well out of his way. I could have passed a cup of tea to him he was so close. Also coaster small coming out of the Solent. Both of us stood on till I chickened out and tacked when it was obvious he wasn't going to move. At least that one gave me a thank you wave! Big ships (channel plus Thames) seem to be rather more on the ball and alter course far earlier than I expect.
 

Birdseye

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Quite often need to take some care with this 'big boat - small boat' issue, or the 'working v's pleasure' - have met a few (usually smaller) profesional, working vessels who also seem to subscribe to this. Nearly got run over by a smallish tug off Maplin a couple of years ago - skipper seated at the helm and would not budge from his course. Assuming he would alter course, I was hard on the wind and would have had to tack to get well out of his way. I could have passed a cup of tea to him he was so close. Also coaster small coming out of the Solent. Both of us stood on till I chickened out and tacked when it was obvious he wasn't going to move. At least that one gave me a thank you wave! Big ships (channel plus Thames) seem to be rather more on the ball and alter course far earlier than I expect.

Agree. There is a world of difference between the masters of big deep sea vessels and most of the drivers of small commercials. I have several times been carved up by tug boats not to mention tug boats going through the mid river channel between the moorings dragging a 3 ft wake , not caring a toss for yotties or kids in dinghies or damage to moored boats . Do they have to have the same qualifications as the deep sea masters - I dont know but the behaviour difference is that between the intelligent and educated on the one hand and the dont care a ****k brigade on the other hand.
 

AngusMcDoon

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If you need to work out who gives way, just imagine what light you could see. If it's red, you "stop", if it's green, you "go".

I came across a situation recently where that rule of thumb does not apply while coming out of Belfast harbour. A tug was crossing me from my starboard side, but all I could see was green - he was going astern across the harbour. Bit confusing until I'd figured it out.
 

Resolution

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Its a reference to me coming to the bridge "only to see". What the bridge crew had seen and for how long I do not know. Nor do I know where that yacht appeared from. But what I was illustrating by this 8 year old event was that for all the common sense approach there might be to this sort of situation, you can still have a problem with a sodding great ferry coming up behind a careless yottie in the middle of a very narrow channel. The ferry simply couldnt have stopped even from his slow speed in the distance involved and there was nowehere for him to go either right or left..



Some cases? There always are exceptions to any rule, but I can just imagine a large ship going into a congested area of a sunny summer weekend when its full of boat owners excited about their fancy electronics, wanting to show off their nautical/ technical skills to wife / girfriend / kids. 30 boats all trying to talk to the phillipino radio operator. Recipe for confusion

Pedants intrusion:
As well as learning the IRPCS, can we also learn how to spell some foreign terms?
The country is the Philippines, named after Philip II of Spain. Note only one "l", lots of "p"s.
The national languages officially are Filipino (one "p" only) and English (but maybe not exactly as we know it).
A man originating from the Philippines would be known in English as a Filipino. (one "f", one "l", one "p").
The capital of the Philippines is Manila
Manila could also be a largish brown envelope, or an old type of rope. The latter was made from the abaca plant fibres, a type of banana, which I seem to recall being common in the Philippines. Old timers will recall that manila rope shrank when wetted, rendering knots bloody difficult to undo.
In the interests of being inclusive, Manilla with two "l"s is a place in NSW Australia, apparently nearby to New Mexico......

I hope I have spelt all that correctly, or some Super-Pedant is going to come and chew me up.
 

rogerthebodger

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I came across a situation recently where that rule of thumb does not apply while coming out of Belfast harbour. A tug was crossing me from my starboard side, but all I could see was green - he was going astern across the harbour. Bit confusing until I'd figured it out.

We get that all the time. The tug when going astern should reverse the nav lights so it is now going ahead.

In out harbour all pleasure craft, under sail and power, must give way to commercial craft as in our case harbour overrides IRPCS.
 

Dockhead

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Fair point - was assuming the overtaken wasn't CBD and was keeping a good enough lookout all round to notice an overtaking CBD and move to one side out of the channel. But does raise the question of why there are size limits in 9. Why not just say that in a narrow channel, no vessel shall impede a vessel that is CBD. That wy the slow overtaken non CBD ship would have to give way to the CBD (or at least couldn't sit in the channel doing minimum speed)

Don't confuse CBD -- relevant in Rule 18 -- with a "vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway" in Rule 9. Different status, although the consequences are similar.

CBD applies anywhere that draught makes it hard to maneuver. But the status exists only if signals for CBD are being shown. The consequence is that all vessel other than RAM and NUC are required to not impede the CBD vessel. That includes a vessel being overtaken. It means that if you are being overtaken by a CBD vessel, you should get out of the way prior to the time when the CBD vessel would have to maneuver to avoid you, so that you don't impede him by forcing him to maneuver. But once a risk of collision arises, then you have to stand on at least for a moment -- at least until you have reasonable doubt that the CBD vessel can do anything to avoid the collision. The key thing is that just because the CBD vessel is "not to be impeded", does not change the fact that he is the give-way vessel with regard to a vessel he is overtaking, and that means that you have an obligation to stand on.

In a Rule 9 situation, no signals are exhibited, but it must be a "narrow channel or fairway". The consequence again is that you must not impede. That means simply staying out of the narrow channel or fairway if possible, or getting out of it prior to the time that the other vessel would have to maneuver. But if for whatever reason you don't manage it, or can't, and a risk of collision arises, then you have to stand on, at least briefly, if you are being overtaken.

However, in both cases, good seamanship may dictate ignoring your obligation to stand on and just scooting out of the channel if you can -- Rule 2. But you have to be sure that you're not confusing the other vessel and messing up a maneuver he has already started -- in cases where it's possible that he has done this. Rule 2 doesn't allow you to just throw the rules out the window without careful consideration of all of the circumstances.
 
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