KellysEye
Active member
Overtaking vessel must keep clear, covers everything including mobos, ships, yachts, navy, hovercraft and anything else you can think of.
Rules of the road...stand on vessel?
- Thread starter Matata
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Aurai
Active member
The only
Bit not mentioned by anyone posting in this thread, is what you might do as stand on vessel, in this circumstance. The temptation, supposing no VHF conversation, is to incorrectly turn to port to duck under the commercial ship's stern.
More correct, might be to do a large circle to starboard, to then approach behind the ship in question.
Cheers
Bit not mentioned by anyone posting in this thread, is what you might do as stand on vessel, in this circumstance. The temptation, supposing no VHF conversation, is to incorrectly turn to port to duck under the commercial ship's stern.
More correct, might be to do a large circle to starboard, to then approach behind the ship in question.
Cheers
jac
Well-known member
I've always struggled with this one with regard to constrained by draught.
18 (d) (I) says that any vessel other than NUC / restricted in ability to manoeuvre shall avoid vessel constrained by draught.
It makes exceptions for 9 ( narrow channels) ,10 ( Traffic separation) and 13 ( Overtaking).
That suggests that 13 overrides 18. in other words Overtaking boat keeps clear.
However - assume overtaken boat is in centre of the channel and constrained / overtaking boat has to keep clear. If the channel is too narrow for the overtaking boat to pass then how does she pass?
( I/m assuming something like a 21m lighter making 10 knots down a channel that she is not constrained by with a 15 knot ship constrained by draft coming up behind) ignore VTS / bylaws
pmagowan
Well-known member
If you can't pass then you can't pass. Like on a single track road. You wait until it is safe to do so.
lpdsn
New member
There are sound signals in the ColRegs covering this, including covering the vessel ahead refusing to allow the other vessel to overtake.
jac
Well-known member
Indeed - maybe I should have said I don't understand the rationale as the rules are black and white, but this strikes me as one of those cases where IRPCS MAY be the wrong way round and in fact Constrained by Draught should trump over taking rather than vice versa - e.g. More like the rule that sailing vessels or <20m should impede.
But academic in any case but I've never understood the rationale.
Boo2
Well-known member
lpdsn
New member
How would the CBD know the vessel being overtaken could get out of the way. The IRPCS have to be the way around that they are.
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
Large vessels usually assess the situation far better than some leisure sailors give them credit for. The idea that they are cumbersome to turn is a bit of a red herring as they will often assess and alter course slightly to ensure the CPA is reasonable. AIS has helped many worried yachtsmen see what is really happening.
And in answer to the OP, I believe that you are the stand on vessel and that you should stand on until it is clear that you need to do something. I would be very surprised if you had to do anything at all except watch the ship steam past you.
And in answer to the OP, I believe that you are the stand on vessel and that you should stand on until it is clear that you need to do something. I would be very surprised if you had to do anything at all except watch the ship steam past you.
jac
Well-known member
Fair point - was assuming the overtaken wasn't CBD and was keeping a good enough lookout all round to notice an overtaking CBD and move to one side out of the channel. But does raise the question of why there are size limits in 9. Why not just say that in a narrow channel, no vessel shall impede a vessel that is CBD. That wy the slow overtaken non CBD ship would have to give way to the CBD (or at least couldn't sit in the channel doing minimum speed)
Birdseye
Well-known member
Irrelevant Boo. If the tanker was overtaking it doesnt matter. If the tanker was approaching from the port quarter but not overtaking then again it doesnt matter for two alternative reasons. . If the OP is sailing the tanker is give way. If the OP is motoring the tanker still has to give way - remember " if to starboard red appear, tis your duty to keep clear"
No you should not have called on VHF - the MCA are quite strong on that point. Calls can easily cause more confusion and they are a distraction. How do you know that the guy at the other end understands English, for example. It could be very noisy at his end. Transmission could be broken up. And all the time the distance is shortening. What has taking on a pilot got to do with his options or the colregs ? Its simple really. You are on a collison / near miss course, he isnt showing any signs of giving way so you make a large and obvious turn to avoid him.
The answer is:
1/ if constrained by draught you dont get yourself into that position in the first place
2/ If you do so, then you slow down to 10 kn
3/ if you cant do that and maintain control then I guuess thats a situation where you might use radar, but I cant see that position ever arrising.
Mind you I did come into Pompey once on the bridge of a ferry only to see in front of us at the narrowest point of the channel a yacht under sail ( with a blue ensign for the benefit of those who like such issues). 5 loud blasts later and he was still in the channel but had moved to the edge. I did ask the master what would have happened had he not moved and the master said, when he had stopped swearing, they would have run over him. No alternative.
chrishelen
N/A
Then the master would be prosecuted for manslaughter if he run him down...you can't go around running yachts down cos they are in your way....
I run a charter boat and yachts and all types of boats get in my way when I am stand on vessel, the regs say ' you must hold your course.' But reality says otherwise.
fisherman
Well-known member
I've heard US warships on entering the channel call every vessel within 12 miles ahead to establish what will happen. A pro watch officer maintains it should never be necessary to embark on VHF conversations. Imagine if motorists had a big conflab at every roundabout. It only becomes a problem when rules are disregarded. The only time I've used the radio is if I think I or my fishing signal haven't been seen (rules disregarded) or when someone was likely to take unnecessary avoiding action (e.g. I called the give way tug and tow, on a collision course to say 'maintain your course I will avoid you').
pmagowan
Well-known member
When do the colregs say you should hold your course when reality says otherwise?
GHA
Well-known member
very difficult to pass any kind of judgement without knowing haw far away the tanker was.
And as others have said situations like this are where an ais receiver is worth it's weight in gold, see if the other vessel is showing and signs of doing something or do something yourself to prevent a close quarters situation arising long before it does.
And as others have said situations like this are where an ais receiver is worth it's weight in gold, see if the other vessel is showing and signs of doing something or do something yourself to prevent a close quarters situation arising long before it does.
BrianH
Active member
I know what the recommendations are, they have been discussed at length in various threads here, but VHF calls are not explicitly proscribed and sometimes they can be appropriate, asking for and giving intentions can only assist in some cases.
As it was in another case I cited when I could remind a fast ferry of my existence as he bore down on me with a closing speed of near 40 knots, whereupon he instantly executed such a sharp turn to starboard that must have upset all the drinks in the bar.
Nothing, I was just musing and wondering who was calling the shots.
Agreed, it's what I did.
Apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread, I should have started a new one.
duncan99210
Well-known member
Rule 2 is a generalised statement of prudence. It essence, it says that there is an over riding responsibility placed on all mariners to avoid collisions even when that avoiding action would not be in compliance with the other rules. So what? Generally, if you are the stand on vessel, you should hold your course and allow the stand off vessel to make a course change to avoid collision. However, if it become apparent that the stand off vessel is not going to change course, then the stand on vessel must take action to avoid the collision.
When in a small vessel as stand on, I watch larger stand off vessels closely for changes of course. I assess the likelyhood of their ability to make a significant course change before getting too close for comfort and will, if necessary, take avoiding action based on what I can see. That is in accordance with Rule 2. In other words, give the stand off vessel time and space to comply with the rules but be prepared to take avoiding action if they fail to make a course change to avoid you. There's no point in maintaining a rigid adherence to the rules as you disappear under a tankers bow.
When in a small vessel as stand on, I watch larger stand off vessels closely for changes of course. I assess the likelyhood of their ability to make a significant course change before getting too close for comfort and will, if necessary, take avoiding action based on what I can see. That is in accordance with Rule 2. In other words, give the stand off vessel time and space to comply with the rules but be prepared to take avoiding action if they fail to make a course change to avoid you. There's no point in maintaining a rigid adherence to the rules as you disappear under a tankers bow.
rptb1
Member
Can you explain the words “only to see“?
I presume this means Portsmouth harbour entrance, in which case you would've been able to see the yacht from quite a distance. This would imply that either the ferry wasn't keeping an adequate lookout, or wasn't proceeding at a safe speed. Or perhaps the master was exaggerating because he was angry.
Or did the yacht make a sudden unexpected course change out of the small boat channel?
Your story doesn't really give enough information to apply IRPCS.
Which rule(s) are you quoting there?
lpdsn
New member
Having had to use a port working channel a fair bit in the last couple of years, I have noticed they do talk to each other, or tell the VTS their intentions so that all can here, quite often.
I was called up by a ferry a couple of months ago, just to let me know he was going to swing across the channel to turn to get into his berth and that I'd be fine if I continued proceeding along the starboard edge of the channel as I was doing.
You can understand him wanting to make sure a yacht did nothing unpredictable given the number of WAFIs that make up their own rules.
prv
Well-known member
Nevertheless, the fact is that ships in the Channel lanes are quite chatty among each other nowadays.
Pete