RTIR: best non-extreme design for fast cruising in frustrating light airs?

Greenheart

Greenheart

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Not a new theme, I apologise.

I read the first three pages of the Round the Island Race thread, and began thinking once again about what the best cruising design would be for very light winds.

I wonder how mutually exclusive are the benefits of robust, rounded heavy-displacement traditional designs, regarded for their seakeeping in gales, and slender lightweights which at first glance appear ideal for millpond conditions.

My recent dream-boats were neither type...more like ugly high-coachroof bilge-keelers, for practicality in the wintry inshore places where & when I'd use them...

...but assuming one had the time to take a yacht on extended trips in all weathers including light winds when sluggards can really feel unrewarding, what's the best hull shape and rig? Have any manufacturers produced an example that beat all subsequent designs?

I suppose I can expect numerous answers which insist contemporary racing designs have the question all sewn-up...but as long as ultra-deep fins, flyweight hulls, daggerboards and gigantic rigs aren't felt to be practical for shorthanded cruising, what is the closest that existing marques have come to being ideal for rewarding performance in light airs, without sacrificing seaworthiness in a blow?
 
dancrane said:
Not a new theme, I apologise.

I read the first three pages of the Round the Island Race thread, and began thinking once again about what the best cruising design would be for very light winds.

I wonder how mutually exclusive are the benefits of robust, rounded heavy-displacement traditional designs, regarded for their seakeeping in gales, and slender lightweights which at first glance appear ideal for millpond conditions.

My recent dream-boats were neither type...more like ugly high-coachroof bilge-keelers, for practicality in the wintry inshore places where & when I'd use them...

...but assuming one had the time to take a yacht on extended trips in all weathers including light winds when sluggards can really feel unrewarding, what's the best hull shape and rig? Have any manufacturers produced an example that beat all subsequent designs?

I suppose I can expect numerous answers which insist contemporary racing designs have the question all sewn-up...but as long as ultra-deep fins, flyweight hulls, daggerboards and gigantic rigs aren't felt to be practical for shorthanded cruising, what is the closest that existing marques have come to being ideal for rewarding performance in light airs, without sacrificing seaworthiness in a blow?
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Interesting question.

In light winds what you need to prioritise is minimising drag. This means narrow waterline beam and low wetted surface area. Then you need as much horsepower as you can get your hands on.

If you have a look at the results of the RTI this year for the ISC (cruising) classes it's no surprise to see that the top spots are filled by boats that you would call narrow and light in comparison to the cruisy Ben/Jen/Bav brigade that make up most of the fleet.

Of course when it came on to blow the narrower boats suffer from a lack of form stability, whilst the wider boats can generate the power from their form stability to overcome the additional drag.

As I seem to be saying to you a lot Dan, every aspect of yacht design is a compromise....
 
flaming said:
As I seem to be saying to you a lot Dan, every aspect of yacht design is a compromise....
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Thank you for replying, and yes, I realise it's always swings and roundabouts...I'm wondering whether there's a widely acknowledged 'best compromise', which rivals almost all other boats that were designed particularly for heavy or light conditions; our 'best compromise' would have to excel generally, without being embarrassed by storms or lulls.

JomsViking said:
View attachment 43549

http://www.dragonfly.dk/boats/dragonfly-28/presentation.aspx
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Interesting alternative!
 
lw395 said:
Open 60 if you can afford it.
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flaming said:
Not for the light, too much wetted surface area. RKJ's 11.5 hours elapsed was much slower than an awful lot of smaller boats.
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Having been on board and spent a good chunk of that 11 1/2 hours trying to keep the boat moving at all, I can confirm that Flaming is correct. It's a big, beamy boat, with a massive keel (4.5m), sails heavy enough that it takes two people to easily run the jib clew round the inner forestay by hand, and battens stiff enough that they wouldn't tack themselves in the light breeze. It's a boat designed to handle ocean weather with a crew of one and built accordingly.

That said, we didn't have the biggest chute on board as it's demanding to use and we were out there for a bit of fun with some novice crew, so made do with a slightly heavier weight, high clewed reacher which wouldn't stay full in the really light stuff. We would have been quicker with a full sail wardrobe and if we'd been taking it seriously enough to have all got up on the bow to reduce drag at the stern, but not a whole lot. A saving grace was being able to cant the keel to save us from having to sit on the leeward rail all day to keep the sails in shape, which enabled us to have a relaxing and social cockpit-based day.

Maximum speed of the day was 13 knots for about 5 minutes when the breeze filled in as we approached the forts. Enough to re-take a few places but not enough to make up for the other 99% of the day which was too light to suit the boat.

The boats that passed us in the light stuff were mostly Js and the like, which benefited from their polished hulls, lighter weight, reduced wetted area and comparatively larger kites.

15+ knots true and it would have been a different story.


To answer the actual question, I think I'd have gone round quicker in my old Evolution 25. Big rig, lightweight, lifting keel to reduce off the wind drag (and the option to also reduce rudder of you so wished), tiny wetted area. The only thing missing for those conditions was a masthead spinnaker halyard. A very safe feeling boat in a blow too as well ballasted with the keel down and a lot of form stability once heeled a little.
 
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Dan Light winds, light weight is your friend.

My last boat was a trident 24 nothing racy in fact fairly ploddy and none racy. There where two in my home port at the time mine was outboard powered and I did my best to keep the weight off, the other inboard powered and well equipped. You could see the difference on the water, they could never keep up doubly so in light winds.

In heavier weather the extra weight did mean a little less.

If you want to speed forget extra weight, this does not have to mean comfort. The small weights added by things like H&C running water, showers, anchor windlasses, chain not rope & chain, large full tanks, fridges, batteries, doors, china cups, spares clothes soon mount up. There is a reason serious racing boys polish there bottoms, cut up there tooth brushes and live on dried foods, they know it makes a difference.

I understand this goes doubly so for mutli hulls.

Where you want to compromise is your call...

As for a boat I would say Aphrodite 101 is not a bad compromise...
 
The traditional cruisers' answer to the question is that you need sail area, sail area, and more sail area. I guess this focus on the rig is because long-term cruisers don't have much option in terms of hull shape, they need something with the displacement to carry all their stuff.

I used to read the Boat Design forums, and there was a guy there who always used to make the point (with old photos to back it up) that if you look at old working boats they generally set much more sail in light airs than a modern yacht. With no engines, and a load of bricks or potatoes that needed delivering, they needed to move despite light winds and significant displacement, and the only way to achieve that is with more canvas. He had designed and built his own boat with 1000 square feet of mainsail on a 35' hull, plus jib, staysail, and a fair-sized lug mizzen.

The Pardeys were also keen on having lots of sail area for light winds; they also carried a special suit of "drifting sails" made of spinnaker fabric so that they wouldn't slat and bang around like normal sailcloth does in a calm.

Pete
 
My Benny 235 had good speed in the RTIR this year. It's light, has a lot of sail and we threw everyone forward to get the boat's fat bum out of the water. We were right in the hunt in IRC 3 until we made a cock up by not standing out to sea at St Cats.
 
Very interesting contributions, thank you gentlemen. Excellent points about over-laden cruiser hulls...I wonder how many real-world examples of the cruisers in the Byron software Portsmouth Yardstick list, could come anywhere close to their theoretical best performance?

Regarding the Open 60, I did fairly specifically exclude that style of boat from my question, for reasons best explained by Simondjuk above...they may be supreme for breezy progress in the open ocean, but they seem pretty damned demanding and 'uncruiserly' in consequence.

I infer from replies so far, that the broad-sterned contemporary AWB really isn't the last word in light airs, even if she's a very sound all-rounder overall.

The Aphrodite 101 seems like one of those boats which it's very hard to criticise...fine on all points, and a thing of amazing beauty even standing still.

View attachment 43551

Please keep the suggestions coming! :encouragement:
 
dancrane said:
V
The Aphrodite 101 seems like one of those boats which it's very hard to criticise...fine on all points, and a thing of amazing beauty even standing still.
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Another great example of personal preference being key....

That is not a pretty boat in my book.
 
Okay...I'm broadminded...well, I'm not, but I'll try to be...what would you call a really efficient yacht, viceless in light airs, and a thing of beauty in your view?

Got to go out...I'll read with interest this evening. :)
 
Simondjuk said:
Having been on board and spent a good chunk of that 11 1/2 hours trying to keep the boat moving at all, I can confirm that Flaming is correct. It's a big, beamy boat, with a massive keel (4.5m), sails heavy enough that it takes two people to easily run the jib clew round the inner forestay by hand, and battens stiff enough that they wouldn't tack themselves in the light breeze. It's a boat designed to handle ocean weather with a crew of one and built accordingly.

That said, we didn't have the biggest chute on board as it's demanding to use and we were out there for a bit of fun with some novice crew, so made do with a slightly heavier weight, high clewed reacher which wouldn't stay full in the really light stuff. We would have been quicker with a full sail wardrobe and if we'd been taking it seriously enough to have all got up on the bow to reduce drag at the stern, but not a whole lot. A saving grace was being able to cant the keel to save us from having to sit on the leeward rail all day to keep the sails in shape, which enabled us to have a relaxing and social cockpit-based day.

Maximum speed of the day was 13 knots for about 5 minutes when the breeze filled in as we approached the forts. Enough to re-take a few places but not enough to make up for the other 99% of the day which was too light to suit the boat.

The boats that passed us in the light stuff were mostly Js and the like, which benefited from their polished hulls, lighter weight, reduced wetted area and comparatively larger kites.

15+ knots true and it would have been a different story.


To answer the actual question, I think I'd have gone round quicker in my old Evolution 25. Big rig, lightweight, lifting keel to reduce off the wind drag (and the option to also reduce rudder of you so wished), tiny wetted area. The only thing missing for those conditions was a masthead spinnaker halyard. A very safe feeling boat in a blow too as well ballasted with the keel down and a lot of form stability once heeled a little.
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My experience is that the J's generally do well in light weather.
 
dancrane said:
Okay...I'm broadminded...well, I'm not, but I'll try to be...what would you call a really efficient yacht, viceless in light airs, and a thing of beauty in your view?

Got to go out...I'll read with interest this evening. :)
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Good start would be the J111. Lovely looking boat that. Known to be good in the light, though only got 6th in IRC0. Mind you, that's a very tough group...

The J100 is probably the best looking J though. Especially without the sill Jib boom and with the teak deck.

Pretty much anything by Mark Mills, but especially the 39 that is now known as Local Letterbox Zero (And won IRC0 on saturday). Just looks purposeful.

Going more cruisy the X37 is a beautiful boat. (And won IRC1...)

I guess the older IOR designs don't really do it for me, though I do have a soft spot for the Dehlers. (and see who won ISC overall...)

But like I said... Personal choice...
 
An open 60 would be useless as a cruising boat
What you have to consider is how you want to use the boat & when
If you are an east coast mud crawler then your requirements are different to a weekend solent racer
Personally a well found cruising boat that can be easily handled by the crew one is likely to have ie wife & kids or young blokes out for a laugh is more use
Being able to go upwind fast & comfortably in a blow is far more important than a light weather drifter
As most people have work commitments & wives are the crew then a comfortable easily handled boat with a decent inboard for the light airs or for that nasty trip dead into wind against a 1.5 metre chop when you have to get home is far more important
 
flaming said:
Good start would be the J111. Lovely looking boat that. Known to be good in the light...
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View attachment 43556

We can agree on that...fantastic-looking...although, I feel there's something of the big dinghy about her...maybe the cruiser element of the question hasn't been answered?

As for the Mills 39, however accomplished that lady may be, I just don't fancy her...and I can't see many cruising parties happily donning matching gear as rail-ballast...

View attachment 43557

Of course, I'm hoping for the impossible - a yacht which looks like a restrained, comfortable non-AWB cruiser, but can sail admirably well, if not quite as fast as pure-bred racers.
 
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