RTIR: best non-extreme design for fast cruising in frustrating light airs?

Dan,

as I'm sure you know, some 1970's/80's designs offered standard or tall rigs, the Seawolf 30 being one example; there was one with the big rig moored near me for years, frankly it looked quite a beast to me, maybe confirmed by the wife always being nervous and their giving up sailing completely after quite a few years making the best of it; the sort of boat you or I would enjoy but as for partners, maybe not !

If the handicap suited I'd think that twin keeler would clean up on the RTIR, but if Folkboats are winning it shows the usual flaws in handicap racing...
 
Well my Humphreys 3/4 tonner, like a number of others is being cruiserised.

Was fractional tall rig with runners - now mast head rig, no runners.
Did have 10hp engine over the keel - now 30hp Yanmar under the cockpit with saildrive.
Did have central 20litre fuel tank - now 100 litre behind engine.
Did have 9 cot berths - now 1 double berth and two singles.

The list continues with the galley, heads, water, holding tank, nav station etc.

Still got the elliptical lead keel and the heavy rig/deck bracing and with a ballast ratio of over 50%

My philosophy being its easier to make a fast boat more comfortable than
trying to make a comfortable boat sail faster.
 
Javelin said:
Well my Humphreys 3/4 tonner, like a number of others is being cruiserised.

Was fractional tall rig with runners - now mast head rig, no runners.
Did have 10hp engine over the keel - now 30hp Yanmar under the cockpit with saildrive.
Did have central 20litre fuel tank - now 100 litre behind engine.
Did have 9 cot berths - now 1 double berth and two singles.

The list continues with the galley, heads, water, holding tank, nav station etc.

Still got the elliptical lead keel and the heavy rig/deck bracing and with a ballast ratio of over 50%

My philosophy being its easier to make a fast boat more comfortable than
trying to make a comfortable boat sail faster.
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I guess we are of a similar ilk, my 3/4 tonner is less cruiserized.
It still has the central 20hp engine,
It still only has only a small diesel tank but we carry spare diesel in jerry cans,
One of 2 cot berths is converted into a small double,
Our main anchor is light weight fortress (but of correct size) kept below with chain and warp (we have no windlass),
We still have a big rig with runners,

She still has no doors and sleeping is basically in the one cabin.

A holding tank has been considered and SWMBO would like:
A sink and cold water pump tap in the heads (I keep delaying),
A toilet door (whats the point in a door when you cannot see in from the cabin?),

The fact is once the wind is in double figures we normally sail with the #3 up and once it starts blowing F4-5 we normally drop to a double reefed main and then the runners are not an issue. If I sailed in the windy desolate north I would probably be going for a more sedate design which would be more comfortable in a real blow.

The nice thing is as a 35' in 5 knots of wind we are sailing at near 5 knots unless the wind is behind us, we are still quicker than most white sail boats up to about 45' unless its a waterline length reaching thing even then we are not far from the mark.

Yes we sacrifice a little in comfort but the pure sailing satisfaction factor is real. A few tweaks makes a large difference to our speed through the water, I guess we are wana be racers at heart :o>.
 
dancrane said:
I am curious who buys a less-canvassed version of a boat designed with two rigs. Who wants a sail-plan which the designer tacitly indicated is smaller than the hull can cope with?
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The Dragonfly comes in standard and 'extreme' versions. The big rig version has so much power you could get yourself into real trouble if you were in cruising-casual mode. I personally would love one but I'd go for the standard rig, it's b***** fast even in standard trim. A friend with a stretched version of my boat has had his mast bobbited by 3 metres because he rarely sailed it without a reef.

Even if you're a keen racer the rating should make up for the lack of ultimate sail size.
 
There seems to be a major point being missed here. The boats going fastest are the ones with the best sails. And not necessarily the biggest sail area. For the RTI this year we used a J-109 with brand new carbon laminate sails, the boat is pretty standard although the hull is in good clean condition. We decided the really light conditions (Needles to St Cats) needed best lift-to-drag ratio and stayed with a nicely shaped jib (ours is a bit bigger than the usual No. 3 on a J-109) and main. We easily slipped past many boats trying to fly spinnakers which were in fact just pinned beam-on to the wind and making loads of leeway.

We were one of the Js that overtook RKJ's Open 60 (and a nearby Open 40) but you could easily see the difference was in the sails. Our light and controllable set allowed us to tease some lift out of the zephyrs while the Open 60's sails were just too heavy to fill and respond.

So, back to the original post. For a cruiser to do well in light airs, just choose a decent hull shape with the accommodation you want but invest in a set of good quality laminate sails to bring out on those days when you want a bit of extra performance. You might want to add some better sail controls but we're talking DIY and modest cash for that. If you choose to go for a medium size cruising boat then you'd need to spend about £8,000 - £10,000 for a main and genoa although just putting on a decent genoa or jib will give you most of the pointing and speed advantage.

With all that talk of Folkboats earlier in this thread, please note that those top racing people put really top class sails on them to be competitive.
 
flaming said:
Interesting question.

In light winds what you need to prioritise is minimising drag. This means narrow waterline beam and low wetted surface area. Then you need as much horsepower as you can get your hands on.

If you have a look at the results of the RTI this year for the ISC (cruising) classes it's no surprise to see that the top spots are filled by boats that you would call narrow and light in comparison to the cruisy Ben/Jen/Bav brigade that make up most of the fleet.

Of course when it came on to blow the narrower boats suffer from a lack of form stability, whilst the wider boats can generate the power from their form stability to overcome the additional drag.

As I seem to be saying to you a lot Dan, every aspect of yacht design is a compromise....
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Starting from personal preference I just had a look at the results and see no less than three of the first six in Class 3A were Elan 333. They fit your description of a wide deck level beam but a narrow waterline beam and a tall rig. Deep lead fin. Good fun for coastal cruising, not my first choice for the Atlantic.
 
Fast. Cruising. Light airs. Not an extreme design.

I'm not sure all of those things go together.

I also find that many people on this forum think that the only true cruising boats are those that they would feel comfortable in when beating against a F21 in a wind over spring tide situation on a moonless midnight on a Friday 13th. Light airs performance is rarely a consideration.

As flaming has said more than once, every boat is a compromise. Mine would be a Pogo 12.50, but that would be a bit sticky in light wind.
 
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bbg said:
I'm not sure all of those things go together.
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Indeed...but I'm interested in designs which achieve pace most easily, without being a hell of a handful in stronger winds...so, maybe "fast in a calm" was overstating the ambition, but some yachts certainly seem less hopeless than others.

As many here have said, cruisers must compromise. I'd rather accept a loss of pace and pointing, than loss of headroom and shoal draft and minimal maintenance...

...but even in the most cruiserish category, there seem to be fast and slow designs. I guess I'm wondering what are the modern equivalents of the bilge keel Fulmar, at every level.
 
dancrane said:
Indeed...snip

...but even in the most cruiserish category, there seem to be fast and slow designs. I guess I'm wondering what are the modern equivalents of the bilge keel Fulmar, at every level.
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Without knowing what a Fulmar is, if you are looking for a fast, modern twin keel yacht I only know of one brand - RM.

http://www.rm-yachts.com/rm-890

The fact that you would rate a bilge keel boat highly just goes to show how personal these decisions are. I wouldn't touch an older bilge keel yacht with the proverbial barge pole, and the RM would be far from my first choice.

If you step away from twin keels, the Pogo 30 or 10.50 (I mentioned the larger 12.50 as my ideal) might meet many of your requirements (swing keels so shoal draft), but I suspect their wetted surface would make them sticky in really light wind.
 
bbg said:
Fast. Cruising. Light airs. Not an extreme design.

I'm not sure all of those things go together.
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Quite easy to do, but will be a bit of a handful in a blow. And expensive.

Narrow hull - low wetted area.
Lots of sail (in light winds, speed comes from a good sail area:wetted surface area ratio)
Light - light hull, light keel. Won't have much cruising amenities.
 
bbg said:
Without knowing what a Fulmar is...
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Seriously?

Quite a nice, briskly-performing Brit-built 1980s 32ft Westerly cruiser...

View attachment 43661

Twister_Ken said:
Reef.
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Thanks Ken, I've always believed that a boat with a big rig can be made manageable, more easily than a boat with a sad little 'cruising' rig can be made fast.

As I said earlier, personally I'd have a hard time swallowing a cut-down rig on a yacht designed to carry more...

...but I'm interested here, in which racer-characteristics can be compromised without demolishing all performance. Personally I like very shallow inshore waters so much that I'd never get value from the undoubted performance of a deep fin. So, bilge keels, lifters and cats are more up my street. But in each of those fields there are loads of shapes, fast & slow.

Sorry I haven't replied specifically to all contributions here. But busy right now, I'm off to put the top-coat on. It's finally warm & dry enough. :)
 
How about a Skerry Cruiser. SWMBO's uncle had one, from memory 42' long 8' wide 1.5' draft big sail. Was be fast. Runners as well with the big rig, but as max beam was 8', reaching the leavers as you tack would not be a problem.

Not many of today families would put up with lack of standing headroom for speed, and it was a bit wobbly at anchor with a swell. Marina cost would be high for the accommodation.

Thinking about it, it was nearly half a catamaran.
 
sailor211 said:
How about a Skerry Cruiser. SWMBO's uncle had one, from memory 42' long 8' wide 1.5' draft big sail. Was be fast. Runners as well with the big rig, but as max beam was 8', reaching the leavers as you tack would not be a problem.

Not many of today families would put up with lack of standing headroom for speed, and it was a bit wobbly at anchor with a swell. Marina cost would be high for the accommodation.

Thinking about it, it was nearly half a catamaran.
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I guess the Spirit yachts are the closest in design these days. Not checked if any made it round this year or not.
 
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