RTIR: best non-extreme design for fast cruising in frustrating light airs?

[Seajet]

Reverting to the hopefully less-subjective question of performance, I've read accounts of ocean-going cats having their pace stymied by too many on-board spares & stores...

...is there any recognised scale of declining performance with overloading? Can we suppose that the minimally-equipped new boats which most new owners decry for their tight-fisted specification, are in fact sold that way because they're meant to be sailed that way?

Are certain designs less hobbled than others, by sitting a few inches deeper than is ideal?

Dan,

I think all cat's are poor weight carriers, it's like asking a fighter to carry fuel tanks and bombs, there's a reason they have to drop both if they get into a scrap !

Some friends had a very smart well equipped late Heavenly Twins, one would think the most ocean going cat, but even before they loaded it for weekend sailing it went like a slug, god knows what it would be like with blue water provisions aboard, one would die of boredom long before ' that ultimate wave ' so might as well aim for Cape Horn, safe in the knowledge the time/space continuum is big enough not to reach it before hip replacements and zimmer frames are a higher priority !

They sold it on quickly and bought a Shrimper, at least that was fun in the harbour.

 

[fantasia7628]

A Folkboat must come close to the ideal, judging by the number of times it and its derivatives (Contessa 26 etc) have won the RTI.

 

[JomsViking]

A Folkboat must come close to the ideal, judging by the number of times it and its derivatives (Contessa 26 etc) have won the RTI.

But you'll be bored to death and last on actual time hours after everyone else..

 

[flaming]

A Folkboat must come close to the ideal, judging by the number of times it and its derivatives (Contessa 26 etc) have won the RTI.

That's more to do with the speed being close to the ideal to hit the tidal gates on the way round.

 

[Greenheart]

...friends had a very smart well equipped late Heavenly Twins, one would think the most ocean going cat, but even before they loaded it for weekend sailing it went like a slug, god knows what it would be like with blue water provisions aboard...

Hmm. I wonder to what extent the average private sailboat in this country is laden beyond her designer's recommended, intended displacement? Bigger and bigger anchors, tender-outboards and radar sets always look like upgrades, but they must blunt performance too.

 

[Javelin]

We got a 1st and 2nd in class and came 5th overall in 2002 and 2003 on a Jeanneau 26 cruiser.
Both rounds were in light-ish winds although it did blow a bit round st cats on the first one but we had the kite up then.
I think a contessa 26 won overall on both occasions.

We did take some stuff out like the avon dinghy and outboard but otherwise she was stock.
Three of us on board and all mainly dinghy sailors at the time.
We even made bacon butties when we past the Needles.

The significant factor in our success was the handicap which was plainly in our favour.
They did change it for the 2nd round but obviously not enough.

I did the event last year in a stripped out j 51' alloy racer and we came nowhere.

 

[mrming]

We got a 1st and 2nd in class and came 5th overall in 2002 and 2003 on a Jeanneau 26 cruiser.
Both rounds were in light-ish winds although it did blow a bit round st cats on the first one but we had the kite up then.
I think a contessa 26 won overall on both occasions.

We did take some stuff out like the avon dinghy and outboard but otherwise she was stock.
Three of us on board and all mainly dinghy sailors at the time.
We even made bacon butties when we past the Needles.

The significant factor in our success was the handicap which was plainly in our favour.
They did change it for the 2nd round but obviously not enough.

I did the event last year in a stripped out j 51' alloy racer and we came nowhere.

What do you mean by stock? Under IRC you have to have all your cushions etc aboard. If you strip out the table, doors etc you have to declare it. I was merely talking about not carrying unnecessary stuff aboard. We have a cooker and bacon butties would be a distinct possibility.

 

[Seajet]

Hmm. I wonder to what extent the average private sailboat in this country is laden beyond her designer's recommended, intended displacement? Bigger and bigger anchors, tender-outboards and radar sets always look like upgrades, but they must blunt performance too.

Dan,

obviously this matters more on smaller boats; on a holiday cruise I still have to carry the inflatable, loads of food & water, kedge anchor, boom tent, spare clothes, fuel, tools inc vice, spare nuts & bolts, spare srews, spare shackles, etc just the same as someone on a 50' boat.

This season as it seems I will be mostly day-sailing I am sailing my boat ' un-plugged ' ( re the 1990's trend of Eric Clapton etc playing without electrical backup ) with few instruments and no dinghy etc, essentially stripped out; the difference is immediately noticeable, she's back to her old sprightly self - though being a habitual engineer / gatherer type I feel naked without a workshop load of spares & tools, for no good reason !

In the weight reduction exercise I also swapped the incredibly heavy 100 a/h battery ( which I'd bought to power the radar, that would also have gone if it wasn't so thoroughly plumbed in ) for a much lighter 60 a/h job, she's higher on her marks now and as I say most definitely more sprightly.

When I hear from A22 owners with a 9hp engine permanently left in the well and an all chain anchor rode, my first instinct is to gently throttle them, I always say it's like flying a Spitfire with the wheels down...

 

[Daydream believer]

A Folkboat must come close to the ideal, judging by the number of times it and its derivatives (Contessa 26 etc) have won the RTI.

So a Stella would fit the bill
Had 2 & best race results always in light airs

 

[Seajet]

So a Stella would fit the bill
Had 2 & best race results always in light airs

While I'm a Folkboat fan, that surprises me, I'd have thought the high wetted area drag would make them a bit sticky to get going; still one learns a lot from these forums !

 

[TimBennet]

While I'm a Folkboat fan, that surprises me, I'd have thought the high wetted area drag would make them a bit sticky to get going; still one learns a lot from these forums !

All to do with their ISC handicap and the fact that the winning boat often includes some Olympic sailing medalists amongst the crew.

 

[prv]

While I'm a Folkboat fan, that surprises me, I'd have thought the high wetted area drag would make them a bit sticky to get going

I don't think they're especially fast overall, but in a mixed fleet it's all about how much (or more) your rating makes up for that.

Flaming's explanation makes a lot of sense too - if their rating is perfectly judged to make it exactly fair on still water, but their actual speed over the ground happens to be optimum for the Isle of Wight's tidal patterns, then they will come out on top.

Pete

 

[Racecruiser]

All to do with their ISC handicap and the fact that the winning boat often includes some Olympic sailing medalists amongst the crew.

I think you'll find that the Folkboats and some Contessa 26 are in the IRC classes - the best adjusted time gets you the Gold Roman Bowl. Think it's the Silver Bowl for the best ISC time.

Of course the IRC classes have proper IRC ratings while ISC have something much simpler and less rigorous as determined by The Island SC. So when it comes to how good a boat/crew is - look at the IRC results.

Those boats are good for the reasons already stated and being fine entry/medium displacement in light wind can maintain way through a sloppy sea - also when tide cheating is required they can tuck in really close as they have small drafts. I remember seeing Madeleine (Folkboat won the Gold Roman Bowl 3 times) so close before St Kats a few years ago I felt sure they could get out and walk. Folkboats race as a one-design fleet out of Lymington and Yarmouth so they tend to know what they are doing.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/177137/Round-the-Island-Race-prizegiving

 

[TimBennet]

I think you'll find that the Folkboats and some Contessa 26 are in the IRC classes - the best adjusted time gets you the Gold Roman Bowl.

Thank you.

 

[Twister_Ken]

The OP asked for the best non-extreme design for fast cruising in frustrating light airs.

With respect to the Folkie, Co26, Stella, etc (and love them dearly) I suspect the only non-frustrating part of conducting one of them around the Wight in light airs would be knowing that you might end up in the chocolates simply by virtue of your handicap. Trying to coax one along in a Force 0.5 would be as frustrating as eating rice with a pin.

What you want is a long waterline, low wetted surface area and a tall rig to get some air from up there where it's at least moving a bit. Of course your handicap will be the size of the national debt, but at least you'll be leaving a wake.

 

[mrming]

There's a lot of talk about the Folkboat, CO26 etc and how they have the right handicap / speed to take maximum advantage of the tide. While this is undoubtably true, if you look at the IRC 7 results for Cowes Week you'll see that it's all Folkboats, CO26s and H Boats at the top.

These kind of boats obviously have a favourable handicap under IRC, and these particular examples which keep cropping up are obviously very well sailed.

We had a well sorted Folkboat in our club for a while and it was extremely difficult to beat on handicap and definitely out sailed it's rating. In my 21 footer I could beat it over the water by 10 minutes in a Sunday morning race and still lose which was pretty disheartening!

 

[flaming]

These kind of boats obviously have a favourable handicap under IRC, and these particular examples which keep cropping up are obviously very well sailed.

This. If it was just a rating thing you'd expect to see different folk boats winning it. How many times have Madeleine won it now? 4? And they're always there or thereabouts. And then there's the CO26. Always the same one. Always sailed by the Rodgers and often with Olympians on board.
The best sailed boat with just the right speed for the RTI. Don't forget that having the tide with you on a slow boat is worth a high %ge of your speed. And handicap racing is all about %ges of performance.

 

[mrming]

The question is do the top sailors gravitate to the boats with favourable handicaps, or are they sailing Folkboats and Contessas because they like them? (They do have a certain charm and simplicity.)

 

[Daydream believer]

The question is do the top sailors gravitate to the boats with favourable handicaps, or are they sailing Folkboats and Contessas because they like them? (They do have a certain charm and simplicity.)

Well one Richard Mathews, of Oyster fame, bought back his dad's old Stell- Scorpio & refurbished it.
With the opportunity to sail a wide range pf boats up to 100 ft he said that doing Burnham week in his Stella to celebrate 40 years of Stellas, was every bit as much fun.
I believe he does still have the odd sail although having sold my Stella ( my se ond one) i have lost touch with the class

Regarding an earlier post suggesting a Stella might be "sticky" i can tell you that is certainly not the case. But then, having had 2 of them i may be a bit biased!!

 

[Greenheart]

This is most interesting. I asked the question not from avid pursuit of victory through handicapping, nor of racing success at all - but this year's RTIR seemed an indicator of which designs fair best in light airs. I'm interested in which yachts - or design tendencies - achieve reasonable pace in zephyrs without requiring extreme, uncruiserly characteristics.

Good point about wily racers gaining from careful judgement of tides, regardless of their vessels. Part of my interest stems from a hope that some fairly indifferent, inexpensive designs mightn't be as stodgy as is widely believed, if they're sailed to best effect - by new sails, clean bottom, smart navigation or keeping her displacement down. Or all of these.

I am curious who buys a less-canvassed version of a boat designed with two rigs. Who wants a sail-plan which the designer tacitly indicated is smaller than the hull can cope with?