Round the Island race collision - Total Loss

Having just had an insurance claim I would recommend taking the money buying the boat from the insurance company(usually available for a very low figure as they do not want the hassle).
Then assess the damage and get a few of your own quotes for repair. In my case 90% of the repair cost was labour as the actual materials for hull repair are very cheap.
 
yoda said:
In my case the cost is probably only about £1000 moe than the insured value. I just feel they are taking the easy option in all of this.

Yoda
Click to expand...

If your boat is worth more then shouldnt you have insured it for more and paid the premium for more? Hardly fair to the insurance company to expect them to pay out more than you contractually agreed to and paid for.

However, the other party is the one who is liable to you - his insurance company simply indemnifies him . So if you believe you can win and can establish that the value is greater, then sue him. You will struggle since his insurance company knows what value you put on the boat.
 
I think the problem of getting more money from your insurance policy is that you have a contract (you paid they supply) with the insurance company and you must have agreed the insurance valuation proven by the fact you paid. I wouldn't go to a solicitor it would be a waste of money. The fact both boats are insured with the same company shouldn't matter, they should pay the full amount if that is in the policy. Check the smallprint there might be a wear and tear or other clause. There is no point in trying to claim from the guy who hit you because he will just refer your claim to his insurance company, who will know about it because of your claim.
 
If your dealing with the other parties insurance company then they should put you back in the position you were before the accident. You are not claiming off your insurance you are claiming off the other parties insurance as it was their fault and they should have given way or not got into that position in the first place. You will also be aware that it is also your responsibility to try and avoid an accident.

That said why not get some like for like pics of boats with prices and go and see the other insurance company and insist they put you back where you were. If they state you are under insured then you could say that if it were your fault then you would have to except their payment as that is what you insured it for, but your claim is not against your insurance company but the other parties insurance company.

Even though they are one and the same :)

Suppose you could try sending three estimates for repair to the other owner and ask him which one he would be happy with ..

..
 
Last edited:
KellysEye said:
I think the problem of getting more money from your insurance policy is that you have a contract (you paid they supply) with the insurance company and you must have agreed the insurance valuation proven by the fact you paid. I wouldn't go to a solicitor it would be a waste of money. The fact both boats are insured with the same company shouldn't matter, they should pay the full amount if that is in the policy. Check the smallprint there might be a wear and tear or other clause. There is no point in trying to claim from the guy who hit you because he will just refer your claim to his insurance company, who will know about it because of your claim.
Click to expand...

If you were insured for third party liability yourself you would still have a claim on the other parties insurance and you would have to negotiate a settlement because your insurance would not be interested. You would have to demonstrate your loss and agree a settlement :)
 
flaming said:
Not the case. There is case law that states that when both parties are racing ONLY the RRS apply between them for the purpose of determining legal liability - as there is preamble to the RRS that states that by entering a race you agree to abide by that set of rules.

When they differ in some ways (most notably on overtaking) - how can it possibly be otherwise? How can I possibly base my actions on the water on one set of rules, then have another set apply if it goes horribly wrong? That's simply unworkable.

When a boat racing meets one that is not COLREGS apply.
Click to expand...

I see your point, but can you provide a link to or reference for the relevant judgement?

In this case, it probably doesn't matter which rules apply because it was a port & starboard collision (same give way rule) and both parties had an obligation to seek to avoid a collision. If it went to court the issue would be one of negligence, and failure of compliance with the RRS is not necessarily negligent - there may have been factors that made compliance difficult or impossible. I could imagine an argument being put that manoeuvring boats in very close quarters in strong winds was not the action of a prudent mariner, so collision was foreseeable by all parties involved and that they share the blame for the incident, even if one was notionally at fault because of the RRS.
 
andygc said:
I could imagine an argument being put that manoeuvring boats in very close quarters in strong winds was not the action of a prudent mariner, so collision was foreseeable by all parties involved and that they share the blame for the incident, even if one was notionally at fault because of the RRS.
Click to expand...

But its only the give way vessel that decides how close that will be, not the stand on vessel, he just holds his course until he realises he has to act, the proximity has already been set by the othr party by then.
 
Boat44 said:
Really sorry to hear about your troubles.

Any experience I have had with accidents and insurance companies (car/house and boat), even if you are in the right you wont come out where you went in. Its not fair, but in reality there is little you can do about it.

My suggestion, is take it on the chin, take the money offered and go get another boat.

If you are only £1k down, by all means have a go at the insurance company particularly if there are similar boasts for sale , but only if they are considerably more than your insured value. They have little black books with all the prices actually paid for yachts. They vary considerably from the asking price. (I’ve had this argument with the last surveyor who valued my boat. He wanted to value it at sale price. I said that was unfair as that was completely at the behest of the sellers desire to sell and the buyers ability to negotiate; and as there are not enough of my type of boat to provide a statistical mean… you get the jist.)

Whilst £1k is a lot of money in anybodies book, that will only pay for a lawyer for about 1-1.5 days. A survey will be circa £500. What confidence do you have that you will a) get the £1k increase, plus your expenses in proving your case?

I had a strong claim against a marine company for a 5 figure sum. I was advised by two solicitors not to bother as there was a real risk that I would not get a full settlement plus my costs (even though they both said I was right). They both said if it was a 6 figure sum then yes worth while.

It sucks but, unfortunately nobody said life was fair.

What I have not seen mentioned is loss of use? Is there anything in your policy about covering for loss of use; its middle of the sailing season and you need a boat!

Whatever route your choose, good luck and I hope you are on the water soon.
Click to expand...


I took legal advise today (I had it included in the policy) they basically said the same thing. I am almost resigned to it now, just negotiating with the insurers of the settlement and wreck value.

Yoda
 
Gardenshed

Thank you. I'm nearly there and certainly following your road. You are right, when an emergency of this magnitude happens I challenge anybody to rememember to fly a protest flag! yes no blood or broken bones, a few nights of lost sleep but perhapps just the start of a new adventure! 32 years of memories anyway.

Yoda
 
wotayottie said:
If your boat is worth more then shouldnt you have insured it for more and paid the premium for more? Hardly fair to the insurance company to expect them to pay out more than you contractually agreed to and paid for.
Click to expand...

Unless I am missing something, that's not the issue.

You could insure it for a million pounds, but in the event of a total loss, they won't pay out more than the "market value" of the boat.

So if the cost to repair it exceeds the market value, they will write it off, and give you the money to go and buy a replacement boat at market value.

In fact when I had a motoring claim a few years ago, my old car was written off, and they paid me the "market value" and I went and bought an identical but 3 years younger car for what they gave me, so the settlement was very generous. I then bought back the written off car for £50 just to get the towbar off it, sold a few other bits, then sold the rest for banger racing.

So I think the OP's best option is take the money, and buy back the boat for scrap value and repair it yourself. Pay for labour for the bits you can't do, or want done well (the hull repair) and do what you can yourself (the internal re fit) free of labour charges.

Then you will end up with your old boat repaired, and probably some money left over to compensate you for the work you put in, and loss of use of the boat.
 
ProDave said:
Unless I am missing something, that's not the issue.

You could insure it for a million pounds, but in the event of a total loss, they won't pay out more than the "market value" of the boat.
Click to expand...

In marine insurance there is usually the concept of agreed value. That's what you insure it for and that is what they should pay out in the event of total loss. I think the OP's issue is that he reckons that the market value is higher than the agreed value.

If you can get your insurance company to agree a value of a million pounds that should be what they pay out. They're not usually that generous with the agreed value though.
 
I think ......

1/ You have to decide on one preferred outcome and follow that track until qualified in or out. Lets say you decide you want your boat fixed.
2/ I would apply some pressure to the other owner / insurer in an attempt to optimise the offer, but don't get to emotional, my guess is you won't make much progress.
3/ I would take any free legal advice you can get (as you are). I definately wouldn't go down a route of paying for legal advice as it could make the financial situation much worse.
4/ Somewhere out there is an independant GRP specialist that would be glad to repair your hull well within budget, especally given the boats current location and the state of the boat building trade. You just have to find that person.
5/ I would appoint a carefully chosen local surveyor to oversee the work
6/ The killer might be storage, especially if the boat needs moving to another yard. I guess the insurance co are picking up that bill for the moment?

I think you are resolved to being off the water till next season? It might involve you doing some of the final fixing .... but probably less hassle than spending the next three seasons getting another boat up to the standard of your current boat.
 
With marine insurance does the insurer have a responsibility to make the insured whole again or does he have the option of paying the insured value regardless (even if the value was £50K and the repair quote was £10 for example)?

I ask as I know a couple of cases were the owners of cars have refused the cash and insisted on the insurers finding a car that was of similar spec and condition to theirs before the accident.
 
Hi had the same situation.It was considered a construtive write off.I held on to the boat took a cheque for balance.Got the major work done by those who should know how.They were or should I say he was a nightmare.Got boat back in water with a fistfull of cash left over. Then I had people sliding up to me saying O is the boat ok know. The boat was blighted,it was referred to as the crashed boat.I had intended to change up to another craft but decided to wait a year or two.I did sell at a good price and have my replacement craft. So think about the aftermath.I was without a boat for the whole season.
 
chewi said:
But its only the give way vessel that decides how close that will be, not the stand on vessel, he just holds his course until he realises he has to act, the proximity has already been set by the othr party by then.
Click to expand...
You miss my point - In the case of a race like the RTI there are dozens (hundreds?) of boats in close proximity and if there are strong winds and gusty conditions it would seem likely that collisions will occur. It might be great fun to be there, but it may not be perceived as a prudent and seamanlike activity.

On top of that, the stand on vessel does have some responsibility for the degree of proximity - the RRS and the COLREGS both impose a duty to avoid collisions - the stand on vessel should take avoiding action in good time if it appears that the give way vessel is not going to give way. The dispute should be settled by the protest hearing, not by sinking one of the boats.

flaming said:
Took me a while to find it again, but this sites all the relevant cases.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/04/0111pera/
Click to expand...

Thank you
 
dt4134 said:
In marine insurance there is usually the concept of agreed value. That's what you insure it for and that is what they should pay out in the event of total loss. I think the OP's issue is that he reckons that the market value is higher than the agreed value.

If you can get your insurance company to agree a value of a million pounds that should be what they pay out. They're not usually that generous with the agreed value though.
Click to expand...

The insured valued does not apply in case of an accident with an identifiable counterparty which is responsible for the accident. In which case you might have just as well not be insured at all and it would not matter, because the person responsible for causing the accident is liable to pay any cost.

It happen to me that I did have a small accident with someone rafting alongside who scratched my boat. He had to pay up and I did not even inform my insurance company.
 
There can be a whole lot of satisfaction in buying an insurance write off and restoring to working condition. Having done a couple of cars and an aircraft I can vouch for that.

I bought a sailplane that had been damaged in a landing in a field that intercepted with several of those large rolled type hay bales. The repair quotes to the insurers were for around £650 materials and £8000 labour. There were holes in the wings ( epoxy glass ) that I could step through and the fuselage had been folded in the middle. The book value of the ship at the time was about £7.5k.

It took more than 200 hours of hard graft to get her flying again, along with about £1500 of materials ( other stuff like instruments and a wheel axle damaged that was not included in the original estimate ) I sold her on after 2 seasons but wish I had kept her. I got full book value when I sold and it had gone up a bit too.

Pics
 
I've no idea of the total value in discussion here, but would use a professional Loss Adjusting and Claims Managment company who will argue your case for you and often work on a percentage of the extra settlement they got for you. Never fails as they know the insurance industry and how to handle them.
The company I've used in the past is 'Fulmar' (not for a yacht), but they will advise you and perhaps even take on your case. Well worth contacting. Their website is: www.fulmar.net and if I remember right, the chap to speak to is Sandy Taylor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Other threads that may be of interest

R
My boat trip hopefully in May Around Scotland
2 3
Replies
54
Views
1K
ProDave
ProDave
W
Summer at the bottom of the world
Replies
3
Views
222
Chiara’s slave
Chiara’s slave
Anibal
New to the Thames
Replies
2
Views
1K
Anibal
Anibal

Share this page

Top