Round the Island race collision - Total Loss

[GrahamM376]

Sorry to hear about your boat. We had an insurance claim last year and insurers paid me to do the work after I undercut the quotes received. I suggest you weigh up how much you can do yourself, get quotes for what you can't do and then seek a payment in lieu of repairs/writeoff. If you employ labour direct, you immediately cut out the boat yard profit, reducing the cost.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Not a boat, but a car and the same situation. Our second car, owned since new, a very low mileage but 12 year-old Honda Civic that had a low resale value, rear-ended at a roundabout. Insurer's repair costs at a swish repairers was more than the insured value. I bought the car off the insurance company as 'scrap' for a tenner, then had it repaired under a railway arch for not much. Had to get it checked by a DTI examination station for a new registration document to be issued. Five years later, still in the family, hasn't missed a beat.

Could you do the same? Worth asking the insurers.

 

[haydude]

If you are sure that you were the stand on vessel and you have witnesses (I cannot comment on that):

1) Do not accept the settlement with your insurance, it is likely that they will require you to sign a declaration that nothing more is owed closing any chance for you to get anything more.
2) Get a lawyer and send a letter to the other boat's skipper asking not only for the damage, but also for the loss of use of your boat, especially during high season, in the letter notify that you will sue if a payment is not received within x days.

If the counterparty also insures with your insurers it is irrelavant for what concerns your legal rights, but to your disadvantage because in this case your insurer has already tried to settle with the less expensive option for them, which is why you need independent legal advice.

In case of a court hearing, if insurer will know that if the case is settled in your favour you should be getting more than the amount required to repair your vessle, in addition the counterparty will be charged with paying the legal fees.

It is likely that when the counterparty (remember the skipper or owner, NOT the insurer) will receive the letter from your lawyer, he will contact his insurer and together they will come back with a favourable settlement proposal making a legal proceeding unncessary.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[BAtoo]

Sorry to hear this.

Are you 100% sure that you were the boat in the right under the RRS??

If so get a lawyer & contest this with your insurers and the owner whose responsibility this is. Just because the insurers say it is a write off this only means they are declining to pay for the repairs, go after the buqqer who hit you & tell them both (insurers and owner) that is what you are going to do. Also get another quote etc, contest the decision.
And go for loss of use etc - I said this in the initial post ( and got cried down ). Glad to see heydude has mentioned it.

Good Luck.

 

[yoda]

I'm glad to see someone's getting it.

I posted on the first thread to say that the collision damage appeared to shown that Yoda was on starboard but that now appears not to be the case. I pointed out that in the racing rules of sailing it is improper to collide if avoidable. So if a collision occurs the boat that could have avoided the collision is at fault. Unfortunately there was no protest or hearing so there is no apportionment of blame. The problem is that many boats treat RTI as a Saturday jolly on the water that the rules are forgotten (if they were ever known in the first place).

Just to clarify, I was on Stbd he was on port. As the stand on vessel I held course because he appeared at first to make a change of course to go round my stern, at the last moment a gust forced him up to wind and despite my efforts to avoid he hit me. I don't treat the RTI as a jolly, I couldn't however lodge a protest because in a sinking boat I couldn't get to the club to lodge one!

Yoda

 

[dt4134]

Just to clarify, I was on Stbd he was on port. As the stand on vessel I held course because he appeared at first to make a change of course to go round my stern, at the last moment a gust forced him up to wind and despite my efforts to avoid he hit me. I don't treat the RTI as a jolly, I couldn't however lodge a protest because in a sinking boat I couldn't get to the club to lodge one!

Yoda

Hi Yoda, the RRS has a requirement for the right of way boat to avoid a collision causing serious damage (IIRC, rule 14), however you do not need to act until it becomes apparent that the other boat is not keeping clear. In a typical port-starboard incident where boats can normally pass within fractions of a boat length that means a decision at the very last second, but it would really help your case if there was a hard luff or other action in the last half a boatlength or so to attempt to minimise the damage (sounds from above like there was).

Sounds like you believed the port tacker would keep clear until the last moment. His losing control in a gust is no excuse under the RRS.

Not lodging a protest is not much of a problem. Do get your crew (especially if there's a hint of independence) to write down what they saw. Witnesses on other boats will be a great help.

However if the other boat's insurance company (same as yours) has admitted liability and is going to pay out the agreed value I still think it'll be an uphill struggle to get more.

 

[Twister_Ken]

For others not used to racing, you sail with a protest flag (a red pennant) wrapped around your backstay at a convenient height. If you want to make a protest, shout protest loudly enough that the other party can hear you, and break out the flag. Work of 1.74 seconds, and the protest procedure has begun. You can then take it to the committee when you're able to, and if you can't actually make it there within time, notify them by other means that you are protesting.

No use whatsoever to the OP, of course, but might be of interest to others in the future.

 

[Fantasie 19]

I can only offer commiseration as I was in exactly the same situation last year following a dismasting... the quote that I was given for repair came to over the value of the boat so the insurance company was all set to declare her beyond economic repair.... how I got round it was to do a deal with my insurance company to provide some of the required replacement parts myself (sourced them second hand) which got the quote down enough that they were then happy to pay out... lots of good advice above - if you love her as much as you seem to, then a self repair and just leave the bits you can't do to the professionals may also work for your insurance company?

 

[flaming]

For others not used to racing, you sail with a protest flag (a red pennant) wrapped around your backstay at a convenient height. If you want to make a protest, shout protest loudly enough that the other party can hear you, and break out the flag. Work of 1.74 seconds, and the protest procedure has begun. You can then take it to the committee when you're able to, and if you can't actually make it there within time, notify them by other means that you are protesting.

No use whatsoever to the OP, of course, but might be of interest to others in the future.

In the event of serious and obvious damage (as per the OP) the flag and hail is not actually required. Still a good idea if you can, but your right to protest is protected if you're too busy sorting out the damage or looking after an injured person.

If the OP's version of events is correct, then I would be fairly sure that a protest comittee would not have exercised their right to DSQ him under RRS 14, as he believed that there would not be a collision until there actually was a collision. However, I have learned through bitter experience that very few versions of events survive first contact with a protest hearing!

However, if I recall correctly, the other boat has already admitted fault and retired from the race. So no protest hearing should be necessary, as in effect you already have the outcome that a protest could have given you. If the other boat had sailed on, then a protest would have been a very good idea indeed -as although protest rulings now explicitly state that they have no weight on insurance matters, a protest ruling in your favour is a good place to start from and anyone that does that and sails on needs kicking out of the sport.

So this is just about insurance - since the RRS issue is effectively settled in the OP's favour by the retirement and admission of fault of the other boat - and I know very little about insurance.

 

[savageseadog]

There is a duty to protest as a breach of the rules is relevant to the other competitors, you can be protested for not protesting

 

[flaming]

There is a duty to protest as a breach of the rules is relevant to the other competitors, you can be protested for not protesting

No longer the case, thankfully, as it lead to an awful lot of "just in case" protests that were a waste of everybody's time.

However, you do not have to be a party in an incident to file a protest, you just have to witness it.

So if Boat A fouls boat B, but boat B doesn't protest. Boat C, if they witnessed it, can.

 

[andygc]

As he was in a race it's the RRS that would apply, not the colregs.

No. The COLREGS are established in law, the RRS are not. The RRS are nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement on how to have a jolly good time racing around the cans. In any case, both sets of rules require both parties to take all reasonable steps to avoid a collision.

PS

In any case, the comment in my first post still applies - he needs legal advice.

 

[flaming]

No. The COLREGS are established in law, the RRS are not. The RRS are nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement on how to have a jolly good time racing around the cans. In any case, both sets of rules require both parties to take all reasonable steps to avoid a collision.

Not the case. There is case law that states that when both parties are racing ONLY the RRS apply between them for the purpose of determining legal liability - as there is preamble to the RRS that states that by entering a race you agree to abide by that set of rules.

When they differ in some ways (most notably on overtaking) - how can it possibly be otherwise? How can I possibly base my actions on the water on one set of rules, then have another set apply if it goes horribly wrong? That's simply unworkable.

When a boat racing meets one that is not COLREGS apply.

 

[savageseadog]

Not the case. There is case law that states that when both parties are racing ONLY the RRS apply between them for the purpose of determining legal liability - as there is preamble to the RRS that states that by entering a race you agree to abide by that set of rules.

When they differ in some ways (most notably on overtaking) - how can it possibly be otherwise? How can I possibly base my actions on the water on one set of rules, then have another set apply if it goes horribly wrong? That's simply unworkable.

When a boat racing meets one that is not COLREGS apply.

I think I need you on my boat!
How about moderating a rules forum?

 

[flaming]

I think I need you on my boat!
How about moderating a rules forum?

I would never put myself forward for that! I'm not a coach or an expert by any means, I just do quite a lot of racing.

 

[Lakesailor]

The insurance issue is completely apart from the fault issue.
In motoring cases, even when the case has been to court and blame apportioned accordingly, the insurers will, and do, still apportion blame themselves and pay out what they see fit.
I know. It happened to me when a woman pulled out of a side road in front of me and then stopped dead, across my bows.
Insurance company did 50% liability knock for knock.

 

[savageseadog]

The insurance issue is completely apart from the fault issue.
In motoring cases, even when the case has been to court and blame apportioned accordingly, the insurers will, and do, still apportion blame themselves and pay out what they see fit.
I know. It happened to me when a woman pulled out of a side road in front of me and then stopped dead, across my bows.
Insurance company did 50% liability knock for knock.

Why were you driving your boat on the road?

 

[Lakesailor]

It's a long story. It looked like a Mini.

 

[Boat44]

Really sorry to hear about your troubles.

Any experience I have had with accidents and insurance companies (car/house and boat), even if you are in the right you wont come out where you went in. Its not fair, but in reality there is little you can do about it.

My suggestion, is take it on the chin, take the money offered and go get another boat.

If you are only £1k down, by all means have a go at the insurance company particularly if there are similar boasts for sale , but only if they are considerably more than your insured value. They have little black books with all the prices actually paid for yachts. They vary considerably from the asking price. (I’ve had this argument with the last surveyor who valued my boat. He wanted to value it at sale price. I said that was unfair as that was completely at the behest of the sellers desire to sell and the buyers ability to negotiate; and as there are not enough of my type of boat to provide a statistical mean… you get the jist.)

Whilst £1k is a lot of money in anybodies book, that will only pay for a lawyer for about 1-1.5 days. A survey will be circa £500. What confidence do you have that you will a) get the £1k increase, plus your expenses in proving your case?

I had a strong claim against a marine company for a 5 figure sum. I was advised by two solicitors not to bother as there was a real risk that I would not get a full settlement plus my costs (even though they both said I was right). They both said if it was a 6 figure sum then yes worth while.

It sucks but, unfortunately nobody said life was fair.

What I have not seen mentioned is loss of use? Is there anything in your policy about covering for loss of use; its middle of the sailing season and you need a boat!

Whatever route your choose, good luck and I hope you are on the water soon.

 

[gardenshed]

Yoda,
Really sorry to hear about your insurance company's decision.
The most important fact is that no one was seriously injured, no one lost a limb no blood was spilt so the way forward is to get the best for yourself from the current situation.

By all means challenge them and if they have written off the boat, buy it from them for a tenner. At least you can then salvage all the gear that is valuable to you.
Such a major repair could result in a boat that you no longer have confidence in i.e. there is no guarantee that the repair will put the boat back the way it was!

If you like that boat, then search around for another one and hey ho, you have a boat, a complete set of spares and you can do all the things to the new hull that you wished you'd done first time around.

As for all the Monday mornign quarterbacks telling you how you should have protested, flown and red flag, Colregs/RSS: B***ocks to them. You followed the equivalent of a pilots emergency procedure: Aviate, navigate, communicate: Keep the boat afloat, get it somewhere safe, then worry about the communications. Good job.

Don't discount the loss of time: If you rebuild, then it could easily take a year of chasing up a boatyard, chasing spares, supervising the work to make sure it is right etc etc. Unless you are in love with resin and have the facilities or a really good reliable yard that you trust, I'd be inclined to take the cash and as I said, if that boat design is the one for you, then find another and make it perfect using the knowledge that you have.

Is there a sliver lining tucked away inside this very dark cloud?