Rocna's bad press by video - anchor thread don't read if you don't like anchor threads!

[Neeves]

Well here's what I actually did. I had an opportunity to buy two new anchors rather cheaply - an unused 15 year old CQR 75lbs being sold by a very expert couple building their own boat who had decided that it was too small and an unused 40kg Delta being sold by a builder of big power yachts.

I looked up Panope’s videos of anchors like these, watched them, and made up my mind

And.....err.... bought a...........? something entirely different? .......... Rocna??


3 or 4 years ago we were anchored in one of the few islands on the New South Wales coast (The Tasman Sea). It was a holiday and the anchorage had a few yachts anchored - but plenty of room. Another yacht arrived and deployed their anchor, powered it up, retrieved, re-set etc. Eventually they achieved what they thought was a satisfactory set. Later we met the owner and I asked him what anchor he was using. He was using a Manson Plough which he had recently bought, new. We had discarded the same anchor some years previously as being totally unreliable (I still have it cluttering up my workshop (and would have given it to him if I had known he was going to replace crisp bank notes with such rubbish).

It raised a few queries, why had he bought a copy anchor, why had he bought a copy anchor of a dated design, had he not read about anchors - anywhere, local magazines, forums, websites etc etc. I don't have any answers to my questions - but it does appear that the reach of the makers of modern anchors has plenty of opportunity to secure sales (though how they enlarge their coverage of the market is obviously a difficult issue).

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Panope is to be congratulated for his excellent videos. Still photos are hard enough, but video results require a monumental amount of work.

The final table is interesting. Overall I would very much agree with these results with a few exceptions. Personally, I would rate the Rocna much higher, the Excel worse, and the CQR slightly worse. Compared to the vast differences frequently seen between various traditional anchor tests, this is a reassuringly close result.

Panope's tests also help provide some insight into a few questions that crop up frequently on the forum. As expected, the videos show the significant advantage of larger anchors especially in poor substrates, confirm the great performance of the Mantus M1 and also show that the steel Spade and Excel perform significantly better than the aluminium versions. It is great to see some objective evidence for these frequently disputed points.

In terms of being critical

Here we have Noelex who had a long running thread on 'pictures of anchors setting' - he challenges the top place given to Excel, he challenged the place given to Rocna. He also says that the Panope results confirm his conclusions that an aluminium anchor performs measurably less well than the steel version , based I recall by an owner of an Aluminium and Steel Spade, (which is contradicted by Panope's results on the Aluminium and Steel Spade.)

After all that work by Noelex on 'setting of anchors' we surely have expertise and this expertise is in contradiction to the results from Panope. These contradictions cannot be ignored - they cannot both be correct.

There is a noticeable support in this thread throwing doubt on Panope's results on Rocna.......and I for one am not afraid to raise the issue, or issues - is that not one reason Forum are invaluable.

I'm sorry Kukri - I disagree - contradictions need some explanation - there is something in the contradictions from which we might learn.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

Somewhere in one of Jonathan's long diatribes (probably #40), he suggests that people no longer buy Bruce anchors because they drag. No Jonathan, people no longer buy Bruce anchors because they simply are not made now in yacht sizes.

 

[Neeves]

Somewhere in one of Jonathan's long diatribes (probably #40), he suggests that people no longer buy Bruce anchors because they drag. No Jonathan, people no longer buy Bruce anchors because they simply are not made now in yacht sizes.

I am happy to stand corrected

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

Somewhere in one of Jonathan's long diatribes (probably #40), he suggests that people no longer buy Bruce anchors because they drag. No Jonathan, people no longer buy Bruce anchors because they simply are not made now in yacht sizes.

I have carried out an informal study of genuine Bruce and some of the many copies and include the results in one of my talks. The genuine article was cast steel, which I know most of the copies are not. At least two I have seen have fractured, probably cast iron. Several I have seen, including one on a charter boat, were seriously bent, probably also not cast steel.

The design of the genuine article is quite subtle, with a twist in the blade tips that is not matched in many copies.

I think the Panope example is a Claw (from memory of some time ago) which is also not quite the same as a Bruce.

 

[NormanS]

I have carried out an informal study of genuine Bruce and some of the many copies and include the results in one of my talks. The genuine article was cast steel, which I know most of the copies are not. At least two I have seen have fractured, probably cast iron. Several I have seen, including one on a charter boat, were seriously bent, probably also not cast steel.

The design of the genuine article is quite subtle, with a twist in the blade tips that is not matched in many copies.

I think the Panope example is a Claw (from memory of some time ago) which is also not quite the same as a Bruce.

Yes, many of the well tried and tested and successful anchors have been very poorly copied, often with very poor results. Unfortunately carelessness and ignorance leads to the undeserved detraction and condemnation of the genuine article.

 

[vyv_cox]

Yes, many of the well tried and tested and successful anchors have been very poorly copied, often with very poor results. Unfortunately carelessness and ignorance leads to the undeserved detraction and condemnation of the genuine article.

Even more so with CQR. Any hinged anchor is referred to as a CQR by many owners. I walked around a marina on the Orwell a few years ago and was amazed to see so many anchors with hinges, often of very questionable design and construction.

 

[noelex]

To be clear, I very much admire the work by Panope and appreciate the effort that must go into into every video. Well done Steve.

I would encourage everyone interested in anchors to watch all his videos carefully. There is nothing like observing anchors underwater. The difference in performance between good and poor anchors is never subtle.

Most of the results found by Panpope very much align with my own conclusions with the exceptions I have noted. These exceptions are not unexpected and should not be a source of criticism. The methods and substrates are quite different.

Because of these diverse results it is worth considering as many sources as possible when trying to reach a conclusion about which anchor to purchase. Photos and videos of anchor behaviour are extremely valuable in my view, but do not dismiss user reports, especially from people who do a great deal of anchoring. Cruising sailors are always happy to discuss the performance of their anchor. Traditional anchor tests in very controlled conditions with no video or images of what is occurring are also still valuable, especially the larger independent studies that have enough results to produce some meaningful statistics. Then if you want a laugh look at the videos and tests results manufacturers pay for. Personally, I am always surprised when their anchor model wins .

 

[doug748]

I have carried out an informal study of genuine Bruce and some of the many copies and include the results in one of my talks. The genuine article was cast steel, which I know most of the copies are not. At least two I have seen have fractured, probably cast iron. Several I have seen, including one on a charter boat, were seriously bent, probably also not cast steel.

The design of the genuine article is quite subtle, with a twist in the blade tips that is not matched in many copies.

I think the Panope example is a Claw (from memory of some time ago) which is also not quite the same as a Bruce.

Yes, most of the copies seem to be junk.

As a point of information Panope has now done extensive work with genuine Bruce anchors in comparison with copies and in their own right. He comes to much the same conclusion as you.
I am probably one of the few who has looked at most of the videos, ? he is head and shoulders above the rest.

If he could devise a gentle veer test it would give us solid information about a number of things, not least where the performance of the Rocna really stands.

.

 

[Kukri]

I have carried out an informal study of genuine Bruce and some of the many copies and include the results in one of my talks. The genuine article was cast steel, which I know most of the copies are not. At least two I have seen have fractured, probably cast iron. Several I have seen, including one on a charter boat, were seriously bent, probably also not cast steel.

The design of the genuine article is quite subtle, with a twist in the blade tips that is not matched in many copies.

I think the Panope example is a Claw (from memory of some time ago) which is also not quite the same as a Bruce.

Here is Steve (SV Panope) on the Lewmar Claw vs the original Bruce:

 

[Poey50]

If he could devise a gentle veer test it would give us solid information about a number of things, not least where the performance of the Rocna really stands.

Steve has shown himself responsive to critical feedback, for example using more realistic scope and now his latest 6:1 scope straight-hold tests. I think a slower veer test would be interesting.

When retrieving my Spade it often comes up with a big scoop of seabed but the extent to which this is easily cleaned off varies greatly. Some just falls off with a bit of a rinse, some is like glue and needs some scraping as well as washing and even then it might not all come off. Presumably this stickiness variable corresponds to how an anchor responds when required to veer. A fast veer will disfavour a slower clearing (perhaps hooped) anchor in a sticky substrate. A more realistic veering time would presumably allow time for fluke to slide against mud/sand rather than break out. Retrieving an anchor with a thick scoop of seabed may itself be neither a good nor a bad sign since it may not relate to ability to move through the substrate.

 

[[2574]]

Here is Steve (SV Panope) on the Lewmar Claw vs the original Bruce:

I have observed the same differential characteristics as Steve identifies between a Lewmar SS Claw (all £1,600 worth of it) and a Bruce. The former not being an anywhere close match for the latter in terms of experienced performance. The Claw, by my experience, is a poor anchor indeed.

 

[Kukri]

Just by the by, I noticed two large Beneteaux Oceani on a pontoon, both with Deltas. The windage of each of them would be more than that of my boat but their anchors were very much smaller. We can’t all be right?

 

[Kukri]

And.....err.... bought a...........? something entirely different? .......... Rocna??


3 or 4 years ago we were anchored in one of the few islands on the New South Wales coast (The Tasman Sea). It was a holiday and the anchorage had a few yachts anchored - but plenty of room. Another yacht arrived and deployed their anchor, powered it up, retrieved, re-set etc. Eventually they achieved what they thought was a satisfactory set. Later we met the owner and I asked him what anchor he was using. He was using a Manson Plough which he had recently bought, new. We had discarded the same anchor some years previously as being totally unreliable (I still have it cluttering up my workshop (and would have given it to him if I had known he was going to replace crisp bank notes with such rubbish).

It raised a few queries, why had he bought a copy anchor, why had he bought a copy anchor of a dated design, had he not read about anchors - anywhere, local magazines, forums, websites etc etc. I don't have any answers to my questions - but it does appear that the reach of the makers of modern anchors has plenty of opportunity to secure sales (though how they enlarge their coverage of the market is obviously a difficult issue).

Jonathan

No. The CQR was a real bargain - an unused Simpson Lawrence drop forged one, and I am mighty obliged to you and your colleagues for making it so unfashionable that nobody wanted it.

I may never use it, but I’ve got a first class spare or big kedge.

The new Delta is a bit over sized for the boat but it was a real bargain compared to anything else in the size recommended for the boat and it’s easy to handle.

 

[geem]

No. The CQR was a real bargain - an unused Simpson Lawrence drop forged one, and I am mighty obliged to you and your colleagues for making it so unfashionable that nobody wanted it.

I may never use it, but I’ve got a first class spare or big kedge.

The new Delta is a bit over sized for the boat but it was a real bargain compared to anything else in the size recommended for the boat and it’s easy to handle.

I am glad there are people like you. You love your old anchor designs. Without you guys these anchor threads would get boring way to quickly ?

 

[stephen_h]

Have a look at Steve's latest video.
No extreme veers or unrealistic scenarios in this one.
The results of the Mantus dinghy anchor, in this substrate, is impressive. 500lbs of hold for a 3lb anchor!

 

[Poey50]

Have a look at Steve's latest video.
No extreme veers or unrealistic scenarios in this one.
The results of the Mantus dinghy anchor, in this substrate, is impressive. 500lbs of hold for a 3lb anchor!

I would think that owners of Viking 7s would be quite pleased too!

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Jeez! I’m none the wiser after reading all this. I was going to buy a Rocna 15 but now I‘m not so sure

 

[doug748]

Jeez! I’m none the wiser after reading all this. I was going to buy a Rocna 15 but now I‘m not so sure

Once you discount the anchors which are not easily available in the UK, the one that rusts and is difficult to re-plate, the ones that look too feeble, the ones that are stupidly expensive, the ones not now in production and the one that bends in use. Your choice is probably quite limited, perhaps:

Rocna
Manson Supreme
Delta
Knox
Epsilon

In no particular order.

.

 

[srm]

Jeez! I’m none the wiser after reading all this. I was going to buy a Rocna 15 but now I‘m not so sure

I bought a Rocna 25 ten years ago, before all the controversy started. Have used it on a variety of seabeds and in winds up to around 50 knots. We spent around 6 months of the year on the boat for the first 6 years and well over half of those nights were at anchor. Quite honestly I do not understand what all the negative fuss is about.
We dragged a bit on only three nights, none dangerously and only discovered on getting up n the morning. One time the anchor came up choked in Shetland kelp, the second time (Shetland again) the problem was the seabed material, I did not get a bottom sample but suspect gravel, pebbles or simiar. The third was in the south anchorage of Egg and I suspect that we were on fairly smooth rock. All sea bed situations that would defeat most yacht sized anchors.